St Lucia murder

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

On your second point, you are just making stuff up.

I think You misunderstood me a little
I was talking about a average perception, and perception has obvious influence on opinion.

For average European (I do not mean cruiser) the islands of Caribbean are a kind of paradise far away. Most experiences are from resort holidays - from package tourists. Of course, there is some info around regarding crime rate, but it is by instinct associated with drug trafficking mainly, and drug trafficking crime does not touch "ordinary" people too much.
On the other hand cinema, TV, and all Daily Mails of the world are working hard on building the picture of US being quite dangerous place to live.
Both pictures are completely unrealictic, I can bet, but they do exist in people consciousness.

When You go through the whole thread You will realize that also the views of Americans are more or less based on general, not rationalized perception of reality, not on reality itself, as the reality in fact is quite complex and no one of us probably is any kind of specialist in the problems of the public safety in this area of the world. So exchange of views on the problems like penal policy, social policy, and several others can be nice time killer, but not much more.

Probably only two topics are really of some practical use here:

1. Identification of the areas and places as relatively secure and relatively dangerous.
2. Listing the reasonable precautions advisable when passing/being in places of higher crime risk.

All we can involve in the debate of the merits of social enlightening vs. reinvention of old Brit machine associated forever with one French surgeon.
But is it worth a time???

Best regards

Tomasz

[rockDAWG]

Originally Posted by boatman61

A sad thread.. someone died brutally.. but these always end up making me smile.. every time its ends up with a load of statistical crap being bounced back and forth about the US and Europe...
A ton of useless BS spouted by folk trying to score points and establish superiority...
Stupid comments like 'Last time a cruiser was murdered in Miami, Times Square.. wherever..' is about as useful as 'I'll take my Mossberg..'
The situation is simple.. every now and then cruisers are hit by crime.. every where in the world.. so the solution is simple..
Pay yer money and take your chances... or stay away...
Look on cruising as a form of War Zone Tourism... the weather and sea can kill you getting there.. and the bugs and virus's can kill you when you arrive... the locals are a minor threat in comparison..

x100, you are a wiseman

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

What do you propose, a public hanging or a beheading?

Careful, we've already heard the place is overpopulated.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

3) if somewhere that you are uncomfortable, then stand an anchor watch! - a brave man / group who tries to force an opposed boarding against someone (or several, folks now awake) holding a machete......or suicidal.

I find it rather telling that it took 268 posts for "anchor watch" to be mentioned. I didn't because I've never overnighted in the Carib...but I would certainly consider it for those reasons and because of sheer unfamiliarity with holding of the ground, etc.

Not the mention the usefulness of doing it has been discussed here.

Let's make it even simpler: An anchor watch in a fairly full anchorage can be organized via cruisers' net to cover only every fourth or fifth boat, assuming the boats anchored are in some sort of rough array. One boat with one alert pair of eyes and ears and a handheld VHF on a pre-arranged channel (or maybe via DSC and MMSIs?) can "patrol" the boats surrounding. You see a panga coming in at 2 AM and slowing? Hit them with the spotlight. You see a boarding? Light up your boat, hit the PA and key the radio.

Next night, the "watch boat" switches. If the "cost" of avoiding a break-in was having to stay up four hours once a week, I would be happy to be of service.

A few nights of that would really discourage all but the most desperate of thieves, I would think.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I find it rather telling that it took 268 posts for "anchor watch" to be mentioned. I didn't because I've never overnighted in the Carib...but I would certainly consider it for those reasons and because of sheer unfamiliarity with holding of the ground, etc.

Not the mention the usefulness of doing it has been discussed here.

Let's make it even simpler: An anchor watch in a fairly full anchorage can be organized via cruisers' net to cover only every fourth or fifth boat, assuming the boats anchored are in some sort of rough array. One boat with one alert pair of eyes and ears and a handheld VHF on a pre-arranged channel (or maybe via DSC and MMSIs?) can "patrol" the boats surrounding. You see a panga coming in at 2 AM and slowing? Hit them with the spotlight. You see a boarding? Light up your boat, hit the PA and key the radio.

Next night, the "watch boat" switches. If the "cost" of avoiding a break-in was having to stay up four hours once a week, I would be happy to be of service.

A few nights of that would really discourage all but the most desperate of thieves, I would think.

I don't think this is a realistic appraisal of the issues. In my experience if you lit up the boat every time a " panga" swept by you'd be seeing little darkness. Such intruders don't come by wearing a big sign.

Second people intent on boarding are going to be on board fast and will overpower you hence those lights will go off fairly fast.

The other thing is spreader and deck lights dont telegraph danger.

Dave

[barboak]

We like St Lucia and feel comfortable anchored in Rodney Bay. Chris Doyle's guides mention the risk of anchoring off the town and there is plenty of room off the fort or the beach and plenty of cruiser company. It is true that it feels a bit safer in Grenada. Personally I don't appreciate people making comments that we are idiots for going to places that we have decided are safe for us after getting as much relevant and recent info as we can.
Scariest places for us were mainland Honduras, Colon Panama and much of Venezuela!
A year ago the officials in St. Lucia had a one day strike everywhere but Rodney Bay which also has the nicest ones. Wonder if there is still lingering resentment among them. I believe the Veiux Fort's official could have handled the total clearance and these folks could have departed on time!

Sent from my HTCONE using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Coops]

Some people think that everybody is an idiot who does not agree with what they believe. Just the way that they are I guess.

Coops.

[caradow]

Again I have sailed the Caribbean since the late 70's and I will continue to do so.
I do not think any of the rhetoric contained in this topic will change anyone's mind from whatever camp you reside.
My gosh what else is there left to be said other than the appropriate closing statement should be that of Boatman 61's "Pay yer money and take your chances.....etc."
Sometimes Brevity IS the soul of wit

[pablothesailor]

Just out of curiosity how many people ¨lock the boat¨before going to bed? Ive only cruised Spain, Portugal & Denmark & we have NEVER locked ourselves in at nite? Sounds like it may be a different story ¨äcross the pond¨??

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by pablothesailor

Just out of curiosity how many people ¨lock the boat¨before going to bed? Ive only cruised Spain, Portugal & Denmark & we have NEVER locked ourselves in at nite? Sounds like it may be a different story ¨äcross the pond¨??

Cruised all the med , Atlantic Europe , US east coast and a fair bit of the carribean. I never lock myself in a boat , never. Most nights I didnt even put the wash boards in

Dave

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by pablothesailor

Just out of curiosity how many people ¨lock the boat¨before going to bed? Ive only cruised Spain, Portugal & Denmark & we have NEVER locked ourselves in at nite? Sounds like it may be a different story ¨äcross the pond¨??

Have never locked myself in. If cold we've put the hatchboards in. It's a boat not a house. Many nights have slept in the cockpit. But then again, we only do the Bahamas and the US east coast. I would not feel comfortable locking myself in. In Nassau and sometimes in Miami we haul the dink up at night. Anyone boarding has to come up the sides. Boarding from a small boat would have to be on the quarter and we sleep in the aft cabin. Can't sneak up the swim platform with the dink there.

[John A]

Originally Posted by pablothesailor

Just out of curiosity how many people ¨lock the boat¨before going to bed? Ive only cruised Spain, Portugal & Denmark & we have NEVER locked ourselves in at nite? Sounds like it may be a different story ¨äcross the pond¨??

lived aboard from 1988 -2009, cruised for 10 of those, never locked my boat when I was aboard, left the key in the ignition 24/7, which allowed me to save my boat twice.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Also property crime can be high in Europe, as well as pickpocketing and pursesnatching. Americans in Europe who (rarely) catch a pickpocket in the act often go after them physically - this is not so acceptable in Europe, which explains some of the difference.

I used to work with English and German colleagues (who lived there) and they would occasionally show up at work with black eyes. It seems they would get into bar brawls. This is pretty rare in the US - no one wants to throw a punch and get back a bullet.

Greg

Keeps you a little more polite eh? I don't want you brawling with me for any reason. If you thinking I have a gun keeps you from hurting me I am fine with that. Thanks.

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Read and see for yourself...

A well written research paper by European authors titled "Crime in Europe and the US: Dissecting the “Reversal of Misfortunes” documents and analyzes crime rates in Europe compared to the USA. In essence, crime has continued to increase in Europe whereas crime in the USA has leveled off and has been decreasing since 1990.

The authors investigate 5 variables; demographics (fewer young males), immigration, abortion, unemployment, and incarceration.

The European authors conclude that a tougher incarceration policy would help turn the tide in Europe.

Link to paper: http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf

I believe this information is appropriate for CF because it is relevant to assessing risk when cruising in Europe. Additionally, it seems like the USA is frequently stereotyped in CF as being a more violent country by posters from Europe, Australian, and New Zealand. We are also viewed negatively for having a large incarcerated population.

Even though we have a lower rate of violence crime than Europe we are better at it as the homicide rate in the USA is still higher.

Cheers!

Heh.

Originally Posted by atoll

as a bit of thread drift,re this report,it is intresting to note that reasearchers have linked the reduction of crime since 1990 in urban areas with the banning of leaded fuel!

Malcom Gladwell thinks it is because of the availability of abortions. Fewer (much) children born in situations that 13 - 16 years later turn to crime = fewer criminals = lower crime rates. Interesting to read the reasoning (with stats - of course).

Originally Posted by pablothesailor

Just out of curiosity how many people ¨lock the boat¨before going to bed? Ive only cruised Spain, Portugal & Denmark & we have NEVER locked ourselves in at nite? Sounds like it may be a different story ¨äcross the pond¨??

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Cruised all the med , Atlantic Europe , US east coast and a fair bit of the carribean. I never lock myself in a boat , never. Most nights I didnt even put the wash boards in

Dave

Originally Posted by Vasco

Have never locked myself in. If cold we've put the hatchboards in. It's a boat not a house. Many nights have slept in the cockpit. But then again, we only do the Bahamas and the US east coast. I would not feel comfortable locking myself in. In Nassau and sometimes in Miami we haul the dink up at night. Anyone boarding has to come up the sides. Boarding from a small boat would have to be on the quarter and we sleep in the aft cabin. Can't sneak up the swim platform with the dink there.

Originally Posted by John A

lived aboard from 1988 -2009, cruised for 10 of those, never locked my boat when I was aboard, left the key in the ignition 24/7, which allowed me to save my boat twice.

That makes me feel better. I wonder if I can keep the feeling till after I fly out of St. Lucia in late May.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I don't think this is a realistic appraisal of the issues. In my experience if you lit up the boat every time a " panga" swept by you'd be seeing little darkness. Such intruders don't come by wearing a big sign.

Second people intent on boarding are going to be on board fast and will overpower you hence those lights will go off fairly fast.

The other thing is spreader and deck lights dont telegraph danger.

Dave

Fair enough. I'm trying to think in terms of safety (or at least less danger) in numbers. It needn't involve lights. I still think that if one boat in five (or pick your number under 10, say) clearly showed a watch being kept, there would be a "halo effect" around that boat. Thieves don't generally like to be seen or to encounter complications.

[pablothesailor]

A thief will always look for the softer target, our business property in Spain got broken into 2 times, we then installed an alarm that had a sign in the window showing we had it, there were also sensor lights.....we never got broken into again...but others who had no security did!If there was a sensor that automaticaly set off security lights should anything bigger than a swan get within 2 metres of the boat am certain thieves would look for a softer target, not sure if this sort of device is available or what sort of drain it could have on the batteries?