St Lucia murder

[terminalcitygrl]

And yes crime happens everywhere but the stats that would be telling and of interest to us is crimes committed against tourists. Locals far and away the world over commit crime against each other, not outsiders as a general rule but I expect in countries where the wealth disparity is obvious and people are desperate for basic needs and have little to lose, you're going to see more theft and robbery. As a tourist, especially a yachtie, you're going to be a symbol of that wealth disparity and violence may be more likely when anger meets opportunity.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by "happytogether

".......... my goal is to say there is no "safe" place just some safer than others. There have been beatings and robberies in Simpson bay lagoon which I consider very comfortable. No matter where you are by boat have a plan for what to do when your boarded. Having no plan would be like crossing an ocean without life raft or sat phone. The technology exists for safer passage and safer anchoring.

I think its very difficult to have an effective plan if boarded. Really at that point unless you can either drive off an attacker by force or alternatively submit and hope you will simply be robbed, there's not much you can do .

Not wishing to go down the gun debate. I think that its not a function of American versus other cultures as regard self defence. It's the legal situation that prevents on essence carrying a suitable firearm aboard. I suspect if the rules were relaxed far more cruisers would be armed , I would. Primarily because its one of the few effective ways to challenge an aggressive boarding ( assuming your not surprised of course )

Dave

Dave

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think its very difficult to have an effective plan if boarded. Really at that point unless you can either drive off an attacker by force or alternatively submit and hope you will simply be robbed, there's not much you can do .

Not wishing to go down the gun debate. I think that its not a function of American versus other cultures as regard self defence. It's the legal situation that prevents on essence carrying a suitable firearm aboard. I suspect if the rules were relaxed far more cruisers would be armed , I would. Primarily because its one of the few effective ways to challenge an aggressive boarding ( assuming your not surprised of course )

Dave

Dave

Even if you could carry a gun... you may still be charged and incarcerated for GBH/manslaughter as a UK farmer... in Yorkshire if I remember right.. discovered when he used his legal shotgun on two burglars in his home a few years back... unreasonable force..

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You can argue that you should avoid places like Rodney Bay entirely as a means of avoiding any degree of risk, and you can argue that cruisers should avoid them to send a message that if they are not safe, they won't benefit from cruisers' dollars. But you can also argue that some general prudence and precautions will almost certainly ensure a safe visit, and that the government is well enough incented to make these areas as safe as they can within the constraints of their resources.

I don't mean that at all. When you skip the places I listed, you still have plenty risk to deal with, no worries there! The difference is that in the places I listed, cruisers are specifically targeted by violent criminals. When you enter these places, you are observed and put on their lists in sequence of their assessment of probable success. This means that when the crew is an elderly couple, you end up high on the list. It is sick but it is reality.

Also, your view of the St Lucia government is wrong, I can tell that for sure. Please don't count on government to help in any place in the Caribbean.

We have also toured and walked around St Lucia. But I grew up in a big mean city, am 6'6" tall and under 50yo still. Always saw eyes tracking us and had to confront a couple (probably pickpockets) every time we went out. Not much fun that way but not different than 1st world places. The targetting of anchored cruisers is what put them on my list and of-course the fact that authorities failed to stop that for at least a decade.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Even if you could carry a gun... you may still be charged and incarcerated for GBH/manslaughter as a UK farmer... in Yorkshire if I remember right.. discovered when he used his legal shotgun on two burglars in his home a few years back... unreasonable force..

Yes I know, thats what I mean , different countries have very different attitudes to the use of firearms in self defense. When I meant the legal situation , I meant the whole legal situation.

Tony Martin the farmer you mentioned was a complex case, not as simple as you present. Interesting its useful to compare it to the case of Pádraig Nally, an Irish farmer almost in exactly the same position as Martin, Nally walked free on after a jury acquitted him under self defence ( admittedly on a retrial) whereas Martin went to jail

Sorry - thread drift , this has all been hashed out before - apologies

dave

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Suijin

....
One thing I find odd in the articles on the recent murder is the focus on the fact that they were not cleared to leave the country on the day they desired, as though that in some way contributed to the crime. Yes, if they had left when they wanted then the crime would not have happened, but the delay is obviously unrelated to the crime which was essentially random and could have happened on any day of the week.

Its related because when they couldn't clear out where they were, they decided to sail to the last S port of entry to clear out. This was where the incident occurred and is in an area that did not have other cruisers around.

[goboatingnow]

I don't mean that at all. When you skip the places I listed, you still have plenty risk to deal with, no worries there! The difference is that in the places I listed, cruisers are specifically targeted by violent criminals. When you enter these places, you are observed and put on their lists in sequence of their assessment of probable success. This means that when the crew is an elderly couple, you end up high on the list. It is sick but it is r

Ive been to rodney bay, Ive also toured the interior , Ive even been to a few jump-ups. I think the situation is different then you describe it. Yes there is danger and "eyes following you", but that is common to almost all carribean countries to a greater or lesser extent. But you can't be pick pocketed in you carry nothing etc.

Yes of all the places, and this includes parts of africa, I found the Caribbean's to be aggressive towards white tourist foreigners. I was clearly accosted on a beach in Barbados a few years ago over not buying the coke bottles of Aloe Vera, why its was "explained" to me that as a white "rich" tourist, it was my "duty" to buy this stuff. ( there was a lot of spittle involved). Thats not an attitude you get elsewhere. Its only one small step to then taking your money from you.!

This is very different to 1st world pickpockets. The difference is the level of violence you might expect in the perpetration of a crime in a first world country is low, whereas in the Carribean, petty theft seems to end up killing people.

dave

[captain58sailin]

Aloe vera is good for you, he was concerned for your well being.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Aloe vera is good for you, he was concerned for your well being.

I explained that I had already bought two bottles, !!!. I was coming down with the stuff.

When you stay in a country where it was cheaper to hire in a cook, let them buy the ingredients and cook you a nice meal, then it was to get pizza, Something is seriously wrong. !

dave

[boatman61]

Face the facts.. if your boarded by 3 men with intent your very likely going to get a kicking whether you resist or not..
If you don't resist it may be because they think you've a hidden safe on board (all cruisers have them.. its on the web so must be true).. the woman may well get raped... if they're crackheads anythings possible.. Power Trips rock..
If you resist.. how good are you in confined quarters where you've no room to 'dance' and are pinned down by sheer weight.. you can have all the blackbelts in the world.. but tight quarters is an amazing equaliser..
It all boils down to chance.. the wrong place at the wrong time..
One can visit the same anchorage a hundred times with no problems.. and 101 is the time when someones got no booze.. no crack and your spotted as an easy path to satisfaction..
The question should be.. are you going to let them take away your freedom to come and go... going somewhere else that has not the problem soon develops it as the few turn into the many and the 'Flash Crowd' turn up and the resentment builds..
I remember sitting in one of the few local owned restaurants in Phillipsburg 'The Barefoot' for breakfast 12 years ago.. a cruise ship disgorged its cargo and a load off fat ignorant 'trippers' piled in and started treating the female staff like dirt.. talking rudely about them while they were taking the orders as if they did not exist...
Now that woman goes home and relates the experience to her husband/son/boyfriend.. and when its an almost daily experience what can one expect.. Yassuh... Right there Massah..
Nope.. more likely someone drinks/chase's in the wrong mood and kicks off at the nearest white face available.. not being racist.. there's a lot more kicking off at their own..
As many have said.. lotsa good good people out there.. and a few evil bastards.. for me.. I go where and when I want.. life is a game of chance
You make your own choices.. go elsewhere.. but be assured.. sooner or later it will follow..

[MarkJ]

St Lucia, Rodney Bay

The security problem in Rodney Bay is not everywhere, the marina is safe and most of the anchorage is safe except for the area off from a small village on Rodney bay at

14°04.866'N. 060°57.246'W

The village is just north of the marina channel.

If you are anchored off other areas of the beach you might find it safer to not be sand huggers and park very close to the beach, within swimming distance.

[MarkJ]

2 more arrested bring number in jail to 5

Police have arrested two more people in connection with the death of a Briton who died defending his wife when attackers boarded their boat in the Caribbean.

Five people are in custody over the incident and St Lucia's police force said they will be charged soon.

St Lucia police make two further arrests over death of Briton | World news | theguardian.com

[hanami2]

I have been to Ste Lucia several time in the past 2 years and will be there 2 weeks from now. Despite everything I read in the previous postings and the fact that a murder is a serious issue, I can't say I fell at risk here, no more than in some european big cities suburbs (not to mention some tube sations at night) or some places in Washington DC. We had diner is local restaurants at Gros Ilet in Rodney bay. I was noisy, very animated but safe. Same for Soufrière or Anse la Ray.
There are definitly some risks on shore or on a moored boatout side of a marina or outside of Marigot bay but no more than anywhere else in the Caribean ou south america I believe.
It is all about being "street smart" or "sea smart", it is all about not creating 'temptation' ... at least that's what I think.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think its very difficult to have an effective plan if boarded. Really at that point unless you can either drive off an attacker by force or alternatively submit and hope you will simply be robbed, there's not much you can do .

Not wishing to go down the gun debate. I think that its not a function of American versus other cultures as regard self defence. It's the legal situation that prevents on essence carrying a suitable firearm aboard. I suspect if the rules were relaxed far more cruisers would be armed , I would. Primarily because its one of the few effective ways to challenge an aggressive boarding ( assuming your not surprised of course )

Dave

Dave

Dave,

Most of these threads eventually digress to a guns vs no guns debate, and I agree with you, we would also choose to be armed with a gun if it was legal to do so. But I disagree with your statement and other CF cruiser's feelings that in the absence of a gun "there's not much you can do."

There're several ways to effectively defend yourself and turn the tables on an attacker. We always keep several Ka Bar military knives on board along with several tactical tomahawks, these can be very effective weapons even in the hands of a 120 pound 55yr old woman if used properly in close quarters where the cruising couple has the advantage. I disagree that one's only option is to submit to the attack and get beat up or killed while the robber looks for the boat safe. In most cases, the attacker is a coward who will run if met with resistance. Come at someone with a knife or tomahawk in each hand.... it's very hard, if not impossible to defend against this sort of attack... big, sharp knives are scary and effective, and surprisingly easy to conceal.

The tomahawks can be purchased at Walmart for $20 (made in the USA), and the Ka Bars for around $50 (Made in the USA).

Ken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO6tYl4eAaU

[SaltyTanned]

Not all is reported on the Safety and Security. Only English speaking report there. Others are not even aware of it's existence. I would think only 50% gets listed there.

Gros Islet, the village on Rodney Bay North of the cut, is a dangerous place and even the local police will tell you. There have been countless attacks on cruisers, especially on Friday nights. You can go by car, not by dinghy, and if you stay with the crowd you will be OK. Do not try to walk home, get a ride.

The long and expensive taxi ride reported as dangerous is to Hewanora airport near Vieux Fort but there is another airport near Castries and American Airlines flies there.