Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

[poiu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, as this question was asked, there can only be one answer: the weapon that was designed for situations like this: the Taurus Judge or the S&W Governor. The design goal of the judge was to be used in car-jacking situations. The Governor puts S&W quality into the concept.
This is the gun that many try to simulate with adapters for flareguns, i.e. a handgun that shoots shotgun shells.

They look to be ideal weapons. I didn't know they made such things. Would it not be quarantined in nearly all places though?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Being a seasoned cruiser does not mean that you collect countries like badges for an Eagle Scout's vest to determine your worth. It is the love of the sea, of near and distant places in a well found boat with people you care for and with whom you want to experience these joys in peace and harmony with your surroundings.

Nicely put! This philosophy is part of the reason that we stopped our westward migration at Australia, rather than continuing onward. The South West Pacific area offers a variety of cruising venues with relatively low risk from violence (avoiding some urban areas in Oz and other countries) and great physical and cultural variety. What's not to like?

Jim

[Cheechako]

If pepper spray is a concern, wasp spray in the large can is pretty awful stuff. It's a gel like stuff and can spray 20 feet pretty well. If you could hit the face it would be very effective. Pepper spray has the advantage of being somewhat noxious immediately without directly hitting the face I suppose. The wasp spray could be directed through a companionway or portlight. once they have it on them and smell it they likely will evacuate.
A trip wire alarm could be attached as soon as it gets dark as a routine measure... strung across the easiest boarding spot... swim step or etc. $10-15 at radio shack. I have ones that's 20 years old, was in the salt environment for half that time. Still works!

[Invictus69]

Originally Posted by Group9

It's pretty stupid for a cruiser to not have a contingency plan for anything that could happen, on the hope and belief that it won't happen.

We don't all have the same plan for how to deal with heavy weather, or hurricanes, or a hole in the boat, or a broken rudder, or a rigging failure, and we don't all have the same plan to deal with violence directed against us.

I have my plan, and the training and experience to carry it out. I'm satisfied with my plan to the point I don't even feel like I need to talk about it.

But, to not have one is not an option since you don't get to choose whether you will need one or not.

I agree, I would assume that when people take-off on a journey especially to destinations with a dodgy reputation, they have some sort of contingency planning and/or training.

Re: deterrents , how about an infra red motion sensor that would activate a noisy alarm and/or strong flood light (to act as deterrent before boarding). Any experioences or opinions?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by poiu

They look to be ideal weapons. I didn't know they made such things. Would it not be quarantined in nearly all places though?

I own a Judge and it is sweet. The OtS-20 Gnom smokes it hands down though. Based on the old Nagant frame, worlds only sinceable revolver. Shotgun in yer pocket! These are rare though, the Judge is dirt cheap.



Modern Firearms - OTs-20 Gnom

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Krogensailor

No one so far, definitely not me, has said or implied anything remotely close to concealing weapons on the boat. In all countrys the weapons have to be declared, inspected, amunition counted and counted again when you exit the country. They have to be locked away while on board. A locking situation that you can deactivate,(unlock) quickly. As far as honesty goes, there is plainly, as illustrated by such dishonest comments as in the example above. The moral position and specious argument taken by some against those who would see it their way and choose to defend themselves, within the boundries of the law, is tiresome. If you decide to go off into the woods with a spoon and a bottle of pop, be my guest. Your likely to be the same one who will cause other people to risk life and limb extracting you from some situation that perhaps you should not have been in in the first place. I agree fully that de-escalating any encounter is the first course of action, but ultimately equal force dictates the situation. At 65 I don't see me boxing with a teenager wielding a machete. A few keystrokes and I have a fair fight in the palm of my hand. And my kids and grand kids will be able to drink that bottle of unopened pop they found in the woods. Next to a spoon.

The problem is , that many jurisdictions, actually force you to hand in the weapon and then return to that point to retrieve it, this is especially true of handguns or semi automatics and least true of shotguns.

This causes endless hassle in retrieving the weapon and also means your not likely to have it when you need it.

Not to mention the major situation where you kill someone in a foreign jurisdiction. This could involve you being on remand for a considerable time , sometimes years.

This leaves aside the whole training and combat readiness issues

Its simply not as simple as you present, especially if you wish to stay within the law.

This is not about moral arguments , but the practical realities , firearms don't sit well on an international cruising leisure yacht

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by zboss

I think there are fewer and fewer of these places. I know in certain caribbean nations, the ability of the court system to lock up and/or treat violent offenders is limited to do lack of funding for prisons and mental health care facilities. The sentences are usually pretty lame unless the felon is particularly mean to the judge that day or not connected to a "local family".

I speak from familial experience... one of my close relatives was beaten and raped down on what is supposed to be a safe place. Luckly, another local came along that recognized her and knew the perpetrator and my relative survived. She did eventually have to fly back to the islands to face her rapist at the trail, upon which the rapist got only two years and was let go after 6 months.

The reason is that there are simply no money for facilities for criminals to serve their sentences. Often, they will ship these prisoners out to a large facility in another location to serve out their sentences but that costs money and is only a temporary fix. The reality is that the growth of criminality is simply outpacing the investment in suitable prisons and mental healthcare in most island nations which are already poor and strapped for cash.

I always thought that a sharpened gaff which can be slid inside the sleeve portion would make a suitable standoff weapon and is easily concealed and handled by even the smallest crewmember.

How are there " fewer and fewer " such places , yiu can cruise most of Europe, scandavian, south seas , most of the US , Oz, NZ , many parts of the Middle East , Asia , SOuth America where your personal safety is not threatened , especially on taking a few precautions.

Just don't go where there is trouble

Dave

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

If pepper spray is a concern, wasp spray in the large can is pretty awful stuff. It's a gel like stuff and can spray 20 feet pretty well. If you could hit the face it would be very effective. Pepper spray has the advantage of being somewhat noxious immediately without directly hitting the face I suppose. The wasp spray could be directed through a companionway or portlight. once they have it on them and smell it they likely will evacuate.

!

That is a very maybe "maybe".

Wasp spray tested has been said to be useless. Maybe only aggravating the boarder.
Sorry, don't have the link.

[Therapy]

Interesting that the original question has so few answers though.

Seems very little happens out there. At least to CF members. Are most at home? I am. Other wise I would not have time for this.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by zboss

I feel very badly for this couple... but we can't lose sight of the fact that most violence between "cruisers" is between partners after over consumption of alcohol and not between locals and cruisers.

Really?! And those couples, they cleave each others face in two with machetes?

[minaret]

Since very few of you seem to have bothered to look at the link posted earlier, maybe a vid will be more entertaining and thus informative. Amongst other fine features, Inferno is a foam rather than an atomized spray and was designed for use in small constricted spaces like a car. Unlike other sprays, particularly ones that also use a marker die (which Inferno also does), it also was designed to clean up easily without damage. Seems to work real good too, lots of vids and documentation. My wife is a Corrections nurse, she deals with Tazer wounds, CS, pepper spray, CS paintballs, rubber bullet wounds, knife wounds, dog bites, etc etc on a daily basis. The guys in the jail use this stuff amongst others, because its good in a small space like a cell. Although its a foam, unlike other foams which the assailant can scrape off and throw at you, it liquifies on contact and becomes an oily mess which is extremely difficult to remove. My wife sees the effects of this stuff on drug addled criminals and people in a generally very excited state of mind in ITR all the time. It works, puts an assailant right into survival mode. The sneeze reflex causes you to inhale the stuff, at which point you can't breathe properly and you can't see because your eyes instantly tear up. Then comes the blinding pain. About ten seconds in only one thing matters to the perp-getting water in their eyes. It feels like someone holding a lit cigar to your eyeball. Anybody you spray with this stuff will not "just get pissed off", believe me. It has been tried and tested, and when the chips are down the boys in blue love it, because it works. When a couple of guards have to enter a cell block with ten or twenty guys in it having a brawl, and they are not allowed to be armed, even with a truncheon, this is what they take. Because no one wants a piece of it, they've all been there and only need to see the canister to behave. And the guards know they can physically overpower even a large group of guys if they've been hosed down first. Hard to fight when you can't see or breathe.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-n_jRjC...%3D-n_jRjCTjeY

Inferno Pepper Spray

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BMG0t8tQnUI

They also sell a canister that looks like a large pen. Unlabeled as pepper spray. I doubt anyone would look twice at it.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by poiu

They look to be ideal weapons. I didn't know they made such things. Would it not be quarantined in nearly all places though?

They would; handguns are frowned upon. I just mentioned them as they were designed for it. If you want to have a firearm legally aboard with as less hassle as possible, then have a shotgun and a gunlocker. We never had to turn ours in, even in countries that are listed as having to turn "weapons" in. We didn't even have the gunlocker sealed.

I believe custom officers profile the person declaring a shotgun and thus decide what needs to be done. I was told to lock it away well so burglers couldn't get to it a couple of times. And in the Caribbean a shotgun is much like a machete: a farm tool. I know two places that will demand you surrender it until departure and those are Trinidad and Bonaire. Mexico will probably put you in jail so that is a no-go for a gun aboard.

[Dulcesuenos]

Look at all the possible scenarios where a gun can get you in worse trouble, a boat appears, they pull up with locals on board, you slide a gun in to your pocket, now think of all the possible scenarios,,, they could be cops, officials, heavily armed criminals, or thirsty fisherman, non of whom may speak your language.
Non of which may end well..... i love guns but if you feel the need to wield or carry them on board be aware....you cant un pull the trigger and I u cant just get an attorney to get you out of a foreign prison. Again, i feel horrible for them and for her. Her wounds will heal and in time her spirit, it could be worse, much worse. They could be dead.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Look at all the possible scenarios where a gun can get you in worse trouble, a boat appears, they pull up with locals on board, you slide a gun in to your pocket, now think of all the possible scenarios,,, they could be cops, officials, heavily armed criminals, or thirsty fisherman, non of whom may speak your language.
Non of which may end well..... i love guns but if you feel the need to wield or carry them on board be aware....you cant un pull the trigger and I u cant just get an attorney to get you out of a foreign prison. Again, i feel horrible for them and for her. Her wounds will heal and in time her spirit, it could be worse, much worse. They could be dead.

Too true, you rarely know an assailant is an assailant till too late. This is another reason a dog can be a great security tool. People who would normally pull right up alongside and grab your rail to stay in place will not do so with a dog in place on deck barking at them, especially a big scary dog. Officials will also stand off till they have made their status and intentions clear, and you have had a chance to restrain the dog. The only person who will attempt a boarding in the face of your dogs protective nature is one who doesn't mean well. And I don't miss having strange boats with no rub rails pulling alongside to beat up my topsides unannounced either...

[SV THIRD DAY]

Would you rather spend a evening walking the streets of Chicago or the Islands?