Advice for a risk-averse couple that’s keen on their next adventure…

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Yes, but still cheaper than paying rent on an apartment, especially one with water views

Say $1500/m rent on an apartment is $18k for a year. No maintenance or other significant costs. When the year is over the OP can simply walk away with no obligations.

He mentioned a $150k boat.
- 10% off the top for broker is $15k.
- Assuming he does well and the price only goes down 10%, that's another $15k.
- Say $10k to address issues when first getting the boat.
- Another $5k for travel, survey and misc purchase costs.
- 12months storage at the end before it sells...let's call it $6k.
- Misc slips/moorings during the year another $5k.

That's around $54k.

You can tweak the numbers a bit based on location and other assumptions. They might go up or down a bit but it's a tall order for a newbie to trim that to $18k.

Yeah, I know you will say you live 24/7/365 at anchor and DIY everything, sell without a broker in a week, etc..but realistically, for a year, it's a money loser, triply so for a newbie who likely to make costly mistakes at various steps along the way.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Say $1500/m rent on an apartment is $18k for a year. No maintenance or other significant costs.
.
.

Here a 2 bedroom apartment with water views is closer to $3000/MTH so $36,000 a year
Plus power and water bills so likely around $40,000.

When the year is over the OP can simply walk away with no obligations.

And $36,000 worse off.

Take that out to year 5 and you have paid for our boat (similar buy price to op's proposed) including all paid maintenance , insurance and running costs

We have now passed year six so I see it as we are now saving $30,000 + a year by cruising as we don't have to pay for accommodation.

And we still have a boat we can sell vs " the OP can simply walk away with no obligations"

But that's us.

but realistically, for a year, it's a money loser, triply so for a newbie who likely to make costly mistakes at various steps along the way

Yep, for a year it would be for sure.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Here a 2 bedroom apartment with water views is closer to $3000/MTH so $36,000 a year
Plus power and water bills so likely around $40,000.

And $36,000 worse off.

Take that out to year 5 and you have paid for our boat (similar buy price to op's proposed) including all paid maintenance , insurance and running costs

We have now passed year six so I see it as we are now saving $30,000 + a year by cruising as we don't have to pay for accommodation.

And we still have a boat we can sell vs " the OP can simply walk away with no obligations"

But that's us.

Yep, for a year it would be for sure.

The OP specifically mentioned moving back to the northern hemisphere so unless the plate tectonics have really sped up, Australian pricing/costs don't apply. $1500 for a typical 1 bedroom is fairly reasonable and you can find them cheaper in many areas.

Actually, if you do the math even at $40k/yr, the OP would still be $14k better off in a direct comparison to the prices you list for a year.

Yes, if you buy for long term, it helps but (but many of the costs listed are annual costs, so you don't just divide by 5 to get the annual boating cost...of course, that's not what the OP was talking about doing anyway.

I get it, we lived on our boat for 10yrs and it was cheaper than living on land but not by a huge amount...and it was our 3rd cruising size boat at 1/3 the price the OP is talking, so we weren't going in blind and depreciation costs were much smaller.

[JPA Cate]

Ultimately, I think it is the OP's visa situation which will determine where they will go cruise, if they have to be out of Oz at the expiry of their work permit.

Obviously costs are different in Oz than in the US. Right now, in TAS, rentals are running over $2500 PER WEEK! and these are not fancy, waterview places, either. Yes, they are Australian dollars, not as beefy as USD, and nor are wages; and taxes are higher.

Ann

[dreaming_geo]

Hey all,

Thanks so much for the responses / ideas… I really appreciate them (and this forum!) and will try to process all of them. Firstly, addressing the ‘risk averse’ definition, I meant financially. Though I 100% realize the physical dangers of cruising, and of attacking orcas.

Apologies, I wasn’t very clear with my $150k budget. I was trying to be conservative with the thought that we’d find a boat nearer to the $80-$100k mark, and have to put (hopefully) max 50% into it (with survey, refit, etc). Now I’m realizing that you’ll likely never get that 50% additional back when you’re trying to sell. Like several people have said, ideally you’d find a low cost boat that you can jump onto and go, considering the 1-2 year cruise time. Or, you’d find a job near a coastline and can fit out a boat while making an income and learning more (ideal scenario for the risk averse… but less ideal considering almost mid-30s and want to cruise before we have to decide if we want a kid or not….!)… but anyways from how I see it, those are our two options. Cheap boat for 2 years, decent boat for long time/lifestyle/training.

The ideas below make a lot of sense to me, though I do want this to be a good experience for us that has to potential to extend past the 1-2 years… I’ve come up with a list of ideal boat features, recognizing that every boat is a compromise and we definitely won’t hit all the marks (enough headspace for a 6’4” dude, protected rudder, no teak decks, cutter rig would be cool, aft cabin or pullmans berth (i.e. Passport 40 style)… I really don’t like sleeping in v-berths…, encapsulated keel would be cool too)… again definitely can compromise on most of those things. Except perhaps headspace… 😊 And hence I landed on the Island Packet, Pacific Seacraft, Caliber, Passport, Pearson. And a handful of other similar boats.

I would say you want to buy a cheap ($15-30k) older (1970-1980) boat in the range of 30’-37’. Do the minimum needed to get it seaworthy and go. It will be somewhat better than camping but nowhere near living on land.

Get a good old cheap boat 35' max, that someone has already spent the money on and are selling cheap. They are out there and capable, you can get something that will do what you need for 25k go have fun for a year or 2 then buy a house

Side question… with the number of AWB/production boats (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Catalina) on the market, I guess I’m a little confused whether they sell easily or not? Seems like they may sit there for a while. Though again, if we decide to jump and do a 1-2 year thing in the Carib, than this seems like the way to go.

What sounds more appealing to you: being mid-50s living in a modest house and regaling friends and family with cruising stories; or mid-50s living in a nice house discussing work-related stories?

This comment really resonated… we both would rather talk about life experiences than work experiences… sadly, I really could care less about my career; hence I’m looking for a change. And I totally agree with everyone who mentioned working while owning the boat, just unfortunate that we live in Adelaide where boats seem way more expensive than in the states, and also more expensive to dock/maintain, and no live-aboard in Adelaide. In 1 more year, we qualify for PR so that covers the visa situation and also provides us with medicare… but that’s assuming we don’t get laid off within the next year and with our careers that’s always a risk unfortunately.

Then there’s the whole Pacific Ocean we’d have to cross in the opposite direction… though the cat might like it more than being put under an airplane . Also my husband really latched onto the Pacific crossing idea because he’s the expedition sort….. so maybe it’s not really a bad idea to buy a boat here and try that out… unless yeah the lay-offs happen and we are stuck with a boat and no job hahaha.

Perhaps: cheap boat in Carib, fall in love with cruising, new career on coast, buy 'forever' boat and work while getting ready for next cruise. Or cheap boat in Carib and realize we can't live on a boat.

Decisions decisions!!! But thanks again for all the advice. Lots to think about. We will see what happens.

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

For some it is
For others not..

We are financially better off out here than land based.


That's your experience
Don't speak for us all.

I dont claim to speak for anyone but myself. But from the second you buy a house it appreciates. From the time you buy a boat it depreciates.. even if you spend the money to keep everything perfect.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by cdreid

I dont claim to speak for anyone but myself. But from the second you buy a house it appreciates. From the time you buy a boat it depreciates.. even if you spend the money to keep everything perfect.

Yep, but you won't be buying a waterfront property for $100,000
And you won't be sailing or motoring it either.

And not all boats depreciate to zero.
We bought ours so cheap that it's hard to imagine selling her for any less than we paid.
The only way is up.

[dreaming_geo]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I think you are looking at the losing money thing all wrong. Yes, you do lose money if you buy a boat and never use it. But then if you use the boat hard for a couple of years then sell it for a loss have you really lost any money? You would have still needed a place to stay every night and some sort of transport.
Cheers

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I absolutely understand that buying a boat is not an investment and that boats depreciate. I may or may not have used the wrong terminology in my first ever post by saying 'Will we get a decent return' (i'm not the investy one in the relationship).... I just meant do we assume that we will lose all the money. HA! Sorry ><

I expect to lose money (funny money) (def not retirement or our other investments / savings)... I just didn't know if I should expect to lose ALL the money. And it sounds like that's a good way to approach it. Would I be ok losing $150k... mmmm not really. So I will have to rethink the boat budget! While also considering the amount we'd pay on rent / utilities for a year of land living.

Lots to think about! But I'm having fun with it at least.

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Yep, but you won't be buying a waterfront property for $100,000
And you won't be sailing or motoring it either.

And not all boats depreciate to zero.
We bought ours so cheap that it's hard to imagine selling her for any less than we paid.
The only way is up.

You have the wrong idea. Im not saying living on a sailboat (if you SAIL it) isnt cheaper and a better lifestyle etc etc. It's what i plan on doing!

I was responding to the idea that a sailboat is an investment . NO boat is an investment lol as in.. will provide monetary returns. You can definitely buy a 25k boat , treat it nice and get your money back years from now. I seriously doubt you can buy a shiny 100k beneteau and expect 120k 5 years from now :P More like "Beneteau oceanis.. nicely maintained.. but needs sails and running rigging soon... 80k offers welcome" ...

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by dreaming_geo

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I absolutely understand that buying a boat is not an investment and that boats depreciate. I expect to lose money (funny money) (def not retirement or our other investments / savings)... I just didn't know if I should expect to lose ALL the money. And it sounds like that's a good way to approach it. Would I be ok losing $150k... mmmm not really. So I will have to rethink the boat budget! While also considering the amount we'd pay on rent / utilities for a year of land living.

Lots to think about! But I'm having fun with it at least.

You wont lose your 150k. How much they depreciate depends entirely on the boat. Ancient cheoy lee's, tayanas etc still sell for 30 to 70k or more. Quality boats maintain their value better.





But id consider cheaper. You can buy a 150k boat and trust thats it youre done... off to cruise.. then the engine blows. . Or you can buy a 75k boat and not worry about finding something out you need a new mast because .. well that 75k will pay for a new mast many many times over. Or a 50k boat and if you run it into a container and sink it you just write a check for another 50k and have your second boat and an eagle eye for containers! Also.... you have 100k invested making you 5k a year.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by cdreid

I was responding to the idea that a sailboat is an investment . NO boat is an investment lol as in.. will provide monetary returns.

Depends how you look at it
Like I said above
Our boat owes us nothing in year 5 compared to renting similar accommodation.
If renting, .we would already be down $200k in the previous 5 years rent and next year we'd be another $40,000 down and the next year, more again
Instead of paying rent, we use that $40,000 on lifestyle and buying more income
So yes, buying a boat can provide monetary returns

. I seriously doubt you can buy a shiny 100k beneteau and expect 120k 5 years from now :P More like "Beneteau oceanis.. nicely maintained.. but needs sails and running rigging soon... 80k offers welcome" ...

So buy the bene for $60, replace the rigging and sails, sail it for a year or two and polish her up prior to sale.
Profit.

Again, not suggesting it's for everyone
But to make blanket statements that all boats lose money and money can't be made are in my opinion, incorrect.

[Fore and Aft]

Dreaming Geo you can plan and dream your whole lifetime and wake up an old person who never did anything. We usually call them gunnas.
You could buy this Duncanson below in Adelaide and see what it's like to be a cruiser. Who knows you may hate it and sell the boat. 3 days was the quickest one of my clients realised it was not for them. If you're a mining Geo then 18g is pocket change for a yacht.
Simi 60, I am not saying it can't be done, but everyone is looking for that 60g Bene that they can do up and make a profit. The chances of someone who is not in the marine scene finding that bargain is pretty slim. If you ignore how the covidiots have distorted the market I usually have 4 or 5 customer's out of 200 a year who make a profit or break even on their boats.
Cheers

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/nort...cht/1301310292

[Sailer_Med]

Around here (Barcelona) for people that just want to buy a boat and go sailing there is clearly a sweet spot in the market. It's an AWB from the late 90s or 2000s for €45 - 80k that is in pretty good shape, which means no deferred maintenance. They might be a generation or two down in the electronics package, but I think that is wasted money to upgrade that anyway. Learn to use a chart.

I think it's an error to buy an older boat from the 60,70,80. While depreciated out for the most part IMHO newer designs are better from a functional standpoint (cockpit, galley, etc.) and sail better. They are modular designs, Penta engine/sail drive systems for example, that lend themselves to functional, economical, manufacturing and maintenance.

The idea that you will buy a 2006 boat and then spontaneously blow up the auxiliary is simply ridiculous. . Do the diligence, buy a good boat, and take off.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

I think you need to look at the denominator in the calculation of the risk fraction. The denominator is everything. The cruising base is so much smaller so even one disaster makes the risk high compared to car accidents. That said, there is perceived risk and real risk. The perceived risk of cruising is low. The real risk is high compared to car accidents I would venture to guess.



Also, I think your personal example of one doesn't really mean anything except to you.

Talk to your insurers sailing is not classed as high risk. Not at all

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Depends how you look at it
Like I said above
Our boat owes us nothing in year 5 compared to renting similar accommodation.
If renting, .we would already be down $200k in the previous 5 years rent and next year we'd be another $40,000 down and the next year, more again
Instead of paying rent, we use that $40,000 on lifestyle and buying more income
So yes, buying a boat can provide monetary returns



So buy the bene for $60, replace the rigging and sails, sail it for a year or two and polish her up prior to sale.
Profit.

Again, not suggesting it's for everyone
But to make blanket statements that all boats lose money and money can't be made are in my opinion, incorrect.

You’ll make money on a nicely maintained Beneteau. You will get more then you’d original price but you won’t recover the maintenance and upgrade investment. But you will get a better price 10 years from now because secondhand production boats are valued as a function of their newer siblings.