Alternatives to IP 38

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

I see lots of boats that draw 4ft but the rudder hangs below the keel. .

Really? I am trying to think of one. Which boats are those?

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Really? I am trying to think of one. Which boats are those?

Catalina 38 wing keel, CS 34 wing keel come to mind. Bizarre.

[Papasail]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

Catalina 38 wing keel, CS 34 wing keel come to mind. Bizarre.

Have you ever seen a picture of an IP keel & rudder setup? It almost sounds like you haven’t. It’s a straight shot, with a metal bar extending from keel bottom the the rudder bottom…. word on the street, this sometimes helps lobster pot ropes slip by, instead of catching up.

[Scubaseas]

Completely biased but a Tayana Vancouver 42 works for me. Sails very well considering it's a battleship. Does surprisingly well in light air, shrugs off 30 knots if reefed. Some maintenance issues that can be problematic like water tank leaks but a really comfortable sea boat and good liveaboard. Maybe older than what you want. But they did make them up to 2016? 200 in all. 75 or so center cockpits, 5 pilothouses.

Good sailing and low draft generally don't go together well without a centerboard. Sugarscoops are nice but. Canvas can make any enclosure livable. Heavy can be good when going to weather in seas. Especially places like Buzzard's Bay and LI Sound or even the Chesapeake. Offshore I would much rather have a heavy boat than a light "go fast" boat.

Valiant made a good boat after 1986 or so to avoid blister issues. Hallberg Rassey if you can find one in your price range.

Somewhat dated but still valid list to look at https://sailboat.guide/discover/blue-water-boats
John Kretschmer's list has some nice boats on it.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/...sed-sailboats/ a well finished Corbin is a nice boat. Shannon 38 are very nice boats too.

[Papasail]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

Completely biased but a Tayana Vancouver 42 works for me. Sails very well considering it's a battleship. Does surprisingly well in light air, shrugs off 30 knots if reefed. Some maintenance issues that can be problematic like water tank leaks but a really comfortable sea boat and good liveaboard. Maybe older than what you want. But they did make them up to 2016? 200 in all. 75 or so center cockpits, 5 pilothouses.

Good sailing and low draft generally don't go together well without a centerboard. Sugarscoops are nice but. Canvas can make any enclosure livable. Heavy can be good when going to weather in seas. Especially places like Buzzard's Bay and LI Sound or even the Chesapeake. Offshore I would much rather have a heavy boat than a light "go fast" boat.

Valiant made a good boat after 1986 or so to avoid blister issues. Hallberg Rassey if you can find one in your price range.

Somewhat dated but still valid list to look at https://sailboat.guide/discover/blue-water-boats
John Kretschmer's list has some nice boats on it.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/...sed-sailboats/ a well finished Corbin is a nice boat. Shannon 38 are very nice boats too.

For years, Tayana pilothouse was my favorite boat…. yesterday I ran across a cross-comparable stats table, and as a surprise to me, Tayana beat a great number of boats in several categories, particularly comfort at sea.
A wierd stat, but Tayana is an impressive build.

For years I’ve read about all these boats, and maybe it’s a stupid human trick, but I keep expecting to see one come up that I’ve missed.

I’ve never seen them in person, but I’m starting to now, and that’s a lot of fun. [emoji1360]

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by Papasail

For years, Tayana pilothouse was my favorite boat…. yesterday I ran across a cross-comparable stats table, and as a surprise to me, Tayana beat a great number of boats in several categories, particularly comfort at sea.
A wierd stat, but Tayana is an impressive build.

For years I’ve read about all these boats, and maybe it’s a stupid human trick, but I keep expecting to see one come up that I’ve missed.

I’ve never seen them in person, but I’m starting to now, and that’s a lot of fun. [emoji1360]

The Tayana 37 is a Bob Perry design and a classic full keel cruiser but they're getting old and had issues like deck delamination, serious chainplate issues, etc. etc. The V42 is a Robert Harris design with split underbody, skeg hung rudder. Some common issues but both boats were built at the Ta Yang yard in Taiwan. The V42s were semi custom builds so while there are similarities not all the interiors are the same. Both make great blue water boats. The V42 is not super fast but it's no slouch either. PHRF numbers are 174 for the T37, 141 for the V42. The IP38 has a PHRF of 168. If I recall the IP has a LPS of under 120 where it's well over on both the T37 and the V42. All three boats are good, heavy cruisers. Of the three the V42 sails the best IMHO but it's been a long, long time since I was on an I38. The more I work on my V42 the more impressed I am with it being ridiculously overbuilt.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

Having said that if money were no object I'd probably be in a Norseman or a Pacific Seacraft 40 or a HR 42. Still I used to be moored next to a V42 when I lived aboard on LI, NY. I knew one day I would own one for myself. There are just some boats you look at and KNOW that's for you. Sounds weird maybe but my last boat will be the one I have now a V42CC. The center cockpit was a nod to the Admiral. Quite the tank (30,000 lbs dry) but boy it's a great sea boat.

There is an aft cockpit V42 up for sale in Beverly Mass according to Yachtworld. Looks like he's changed out some of the common stuff. Hoses can be a bitch to change on these models but doable. Wiring could have been better. Leaks were really common if you didn't reseal your chain plates. "Leaky Teaky" was deserved at times. And amazing how far water can travel at times.

[Jim Cate]

Sugarscoops are nice but.

But what? I have lived aboard and done long term cruising on two boats, one with and one without a sugar scoop stern. 17 years in the non-ss, still going at 20 years with the scoop. The scoop is for me one of the best things about this boat. It isn't a narrow, sloped step in the transom, it is a flat platform 36 inches (~0.9 m) in length and nearly the full width of the stern, poised about 4 inches above the static water line. It is a real working platform, useful for cleaning fish, for using the lazarette lid area as a workbench at waist height and a great good spot for embarking or disembarking from the dinghy. A fresh water shower head is there for rinsing off or showering. Has a water accessible boarding ladder for swimming or getting aboard a MOB. We literally use it every day.

Some pundit upthread said "sugar scoops are over rated". I agree, they are so viewed by those who have not actually used one in anger. I have that experience and I'll never be without one again.

Jim

[VChild]

Relying only on weather apps can be dangerous. Last spring I invested heavily in satellite hardware and what I now like to call “un-predict wind”. While doing a Gulf of Mexico passage from Pensacola to Key West, the app continued to predict winds from the southwest at 12-15kts for the entire route with frequent updates. Unfortunately, winds quickly began building out of the east, although the app still said southwest at 12kts. By around 1am, roughly 40 miles off of Tampa, the wind was gusting over 35kts from the east. The app still said 12kts from the southwest. The seas were massive and very steep We were a crew of two, my wife and myself. She was totally incapacitated with seasickness so really a functioning crew of one. And I was having a bad drug reaction to a scopolamine patch. Not a good situation. There was no moon so we couldn’t see the waves but our 35,000 lb Lord Nelson 41 was heaving the bow up to heights unimaginable going into each wave. The bow would then free fall off the wave and bury the 8ft bow pulpit and entire foredeck into the base of the next wave. We felt near weightlessness as the bow would come down off each wave. We battled the waves all night and finally made it into Tampa Bay with the winds still howling. I was so thankful we purchased a heavy duty Lord Nelson. The full keel helped us track extremely well and there was no banging or shuttering like I’ve experienced on lighter weight boats in much smaller waves. No damage whatsoever. Needless to say, I canceled the weather app.

[Papasail]

Originally Posted by VChild

Relying only on weather apps can be dangerous. Last spring I invested heavily in satellite hardware and what I now like to call “un-predict wind”. While doing a Gulf of Mexico passage from Pensacola to Key West, the app continued to predict winds from the southwest at 12-15kts for the entire route with frequent updates. Unfortunately, winds quickly began building out of the east, although the app still said southwest at 12kts. By around 1am, roughly 40 miles off of Tampa, the wind was gusting over 35kts from the east. The app still said 12kts from the southwest. The seas were massive and very steep We were a crew of two, my wife and myself. She was totally incapacitated with seasickness so really a functioning crew of one. And I was having a bad drug reaction to a scopolamine patch. Not a good situation. There was no moon so we couldn’t see the waves but our 35,000 lb Lord Nelson 41 was heaving the bow up to heights unimaginable going into each wave. The bow would then free fall off the wave and bury the 8ft bow pulpit and entire foredeck into the base of the next wave. We felt near weightlessness as the bow would come down off each wave. We battled the waves all night and finally made it into Tampa Bay with the winds still howling. I was so thankful we purchased a heavy duty Lord Nelson. The full keel helped us track extremely well and there was no banging or shuttering like I’ve experienced on lighter weight boats in much smaller waves. No damage whatsoever. Needless to say, I canceled the weather app.

Holy crap!! That was REALLY rough.
An excellent example of being unable to “handle” mother nature with a cellphone, and trading your boat with any classic plastic, THOSE boats would have destroyed themselves in that pounding…. that outcome would be entirely different than yours, and I suspect “Mayday” might have been a key word.

[Papasail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

But what? I have lived aboard and done long term cruising on two boats, one with and one without a sugar scoop stern. 17 years in the non-ss, still going at 20 years with the scoop. The scoop is for me one of the best things about this boat. It isn't a narrow, sloped step in the transom, it is a flat platform 36 inches (~0.9 m) in length and nearly the full width of the stern, poised about 4 inches above the static water line. It is a real working platform, useful for cleaning fish, for using the lazarette lid area as a workbench at waist height and a great good spot for embarking or disembarking from the dinghy. A fresh water shower head is there for rinsing off or showering. Has a water accessible boarding ladder for swimming or getting aboard a MOB. We literally use it every day.

Some pundit upthread said "sugar scoops are over rated". I agree, they are so viewed by those who have not actually used one in anger. I have that experience and I'll never be without one again.

Jim

What boat do you have again?
Sounds juicy good!

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

But what? I have lived aboard and done long term cruising on two boats, one with and one without a sugar scoop stern. 17 years in the non-ss, still going at 20 years with the scoop. The scoop is for me one of the best things about this boat. It isn't a narrow, sloped step in the transom, it is a flat platform 36 inches (~0.9 m) in length and nearly the full width of the stern, poised about 4 inches above the static water line. It is a real working platform, useful for cleaning fish, for using the lazarette lid area as a workbench at waist height and a great good spot for embarking or disembarking from the dinghy. A fresh water shower head is there for rinsing off or showering. Has a water accessible boarding ladder for swimming or getting aboard a MOB. We literally use it every day.

Some pundit upthread said "sugar scoops are over rated". I agree, they are so viewed by those who have not actually used one in anger. I have that experience and I'll never be without one again.

Jim

But remember, your 46' boat with a 1' or 2' scoop is actually that much shorter inside and on deck. And if you wanted windvane steering, is that even possible? Maybe that space should really be a huge lazarette. Any shower can just as well be located on deck since you'd have that much more continuous space there, and you still have to climb the same number of steps from water to deck before you are really on board. As a workbench, possible good point there but I'd find the stern railing to really get in the way of using the deck as a work station while standing on the scoop. All that is what I try to explain to the dear wife as she thinks those scoops are just the bees knees.

Doug

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

But what? I have lived aboard and done long term cruising on two boats, one with and one without a sugar scoop stern. 17 years in the non-ss, still going at 20 years with the scoop. The scoop is for me one of the best things about this boat. It isn't a narrow, sloped step in the transom, it is a flat platform 36 inches (~0.9 m) in length and nearly the full width of the stern, poised about 4 inches above the static water line. It is a real working platform, useful for cleaning fish, for using the lazarette lid area as a workbench at waist height and a great good spot for embarking or disembarking from the dinghy. A fresh water shower head is there for rinsing off or showering. Has a water accessible boarding ladder for swimming or getting aboard a MOB. We literally use it every day.

Some pundit upthread said "sugar scoops are over rated". I agree, they are so viewed by those who have not actually used one in anger. I have that experience and I'll never be without one again.

Jim

But I'm not sure I'd base my purchase around having a sugar scoop?

I have a canoe stern on my current boat. It's a pain in the *ss sometimes. Looks pretty and great in a following sea or when tied to a dock wind on stern as there is no wave slap on the transom. But not much aft storage and it makes boarding from the stern difficult. Having a sugar scoop would be nice indeed for all you mention. Getting my 105# dog on and off the boat would certainly have been easier with one.

You're right. I never lived with a sugar scoop. Sounds wonderful. But. Not sure I'd base buying the boat solely on having one or not. I'm glad it works for you. I've managed all these years not having one. My loss apparently.

OK?

[Papasail]

Sugarscoops:
Two dogs…. and I love the water: I know I’ll be getting in & out (a lot)!

I posted a question about whether they were worth it (for IP’s, they added them in 1996, so you can save a bundle of money looking at boats just a few years before that). Many alerted me to the idea that rolly seas made sugarscoops difficult, and many set their swim ladders amidships.

I still land on the utility of them for water access…. walkthrough transoms are even better, like catamarans being ridiculously luxurious at anchor. The bend in the rope comes, again, when we are reminded of the seriousness of crossing oceans. Most IP owners are saying the rear end lifts well in a sea, and it’s a dry boat.

*The balancing act is real.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Papasail

I’ve spent a lot of time rummaging through the world’s sea chest of sailboats, and am hoping for some experienced thoughts before buying my forever boat this year. I’ve waited almost 12 years. Shopping budget stops at $180,000.
Sailing & refit cash have already been provided for. The expectation is serious sailing: Maine to Caribbeans for a couple years; Caribbeans to Pacific Northwest; Pacific; South America; Cape Horn; Mediterranean; UK; Nordic region; back to Maine.

You are looking to do the above itinerary with two dogs? That will have to be well planned out. The UK is not pet friendly as I understand it. I think you can go to Ireland first, then bring your dogs to the UK from there, but I'm not 100% sure.

I opted to leave my dog with my daughter to not have that complication. But that's just my decision. Yours may be to bring them. You will need a lot of upfront planning to bring pets.

The Island Packets are nice liveaboard boats. They seem to have lovers and haters. They are also well known so you'll pay a premium because of the name.

Your list of places to go make me think more of an expedition boat, so what about a Dudley Dix Steel hull? Not sure about your budget though for that.

My preference was to look for excellent ocean capabilities and not such a well known name as the IP. So I bought a Belliure 41. Pretty unknown in the North American market. Makes for better purchase conditions and when I finally decide to sell her, I'll just sail her to the markets where that boat is sought after (oh dear, i'll have to sail in the Med... ) The Belliure 41 is built like the proverbial brick sh!t house, no coring anywhere, solid fiberglass hull and deck. Pretty fast (for a 1984 boat), points quite well and rock solid in rough weather. Raised deck house so really nice interior liveaboard space.

I've never owned a sugar scoop so I can't comment on them as an owner, but I have been on them. If you indeed are bringing the two dogs I'd say that would be a major advantage for you. I personally never liked how they felt and prefer an aft platform with swim ladder. You'll have to decide on that one, but if I were bringing dogs, I think that makes a lot of sense for you.

dj

[Bobby Lex]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Some pundit upthread said "sugar scoops are over rated". I agree, they are so viewed by those who have not actually used one in anger. I have that experience and I'll never be without one again.

Jim

I'm that pundit. Contrary to your assumption, I HAVE actually used them in anger. And I stand by my remark. I'm not opposed to them. I'm not saying they are a bad thing. They can be nice to have, much like any other feature of any boat one is considering to buy.

But for me they aren't essential, or even a top-ten priority when putting together a list of important features one would like to have on their boat.

Bob