ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

[barnakiel]

A low like that can happen mid Atlantic any time. Less likely later, but not unlikely at all. Choosing one route over another should not be based on such oddities but rather on the strengths or lack of such of the crew and the boat. A bigger stronger racer with stronger crew of more young people may better weather an Atlantic gale than an elderly couple in a typical cruising mode.

Much as we all know by now that a bigger stronger racer with stronger crew of more young people might hit a mid Atlantic REEF (hahaha), if only we had one ;-)

What some may have noticed in the wx chartlets too is the unusually high (N) position of the ITCZ. It got all the way to 8N a couple of days ago when Atlantic High elected to take a multi day holiday.

I think weather awareness and alertness are great skills and I think it is a shame that they are so scarce. Today few want to understand and many want to be given takeaway solutions in takeaway time frame. Signs of the times.

Bueno. Girls and guys. That was my brief sermon from the church of the four winds ;-)

Cheers,
b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

OK

So now that we have bashed the pigs and extolled the greyhounds ... anyone making any use of the data?

It is good to be full of opinions but twice as good to be half-full of facts.

Like what size what speed how much money to buy 0.1kts of VMG. etc.

?

b.

Certainly I am. Just joining it to my data base. If it is useful to somebody else, good for them

I don't think the boats that interest to more people have arrived yet. Few have the money for a XC45 or a Najad 57, not mentioning the Oysters or Swans. I believed that till know by far the best money for Kspeed is on that Azuree 40, followed by the Dufour 45e and the Grand Soleil 43. That Lagoon 450 and most of all that older X yachst, the X442 is also a good option as a winner as well as the First 44.7. All those boats have a great cruising interior.

Some bigger old Swans with a good performance but I doubt that a big boat in top condition like those is less expensive than the Azuree 40 or even the Dufour 45e (including maintenance). A good candidate is also that Oyster 48 light wave, but the boat is kept, maintained and used as a top racer and I doubt the interior would be a cruising one. He lost the rudder on the last race. It seems the new one is just fine but all that costs money.

The Philocat is also a possibility but I really don't know how much that one costs since it is a one off. Those are more expensive but the boat is not big and had a huge performance.

[barnakiel]

Arghhh. The Internet has just swallowed my typing masterpiece exercise in half-English ;-)

Briefly then:

A Philo. Because she is light, fast and easy to sail by two, or single-handedly; and she offers comforts enough for any extended cruising in between the tropics. But an Oy, if we go to Antarctica.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Arghhh. The Internet has just swallowed my typing masterpiece exercise in half-English ;-)

Briefly then:

A Philo. Because she is light, fast and easy to sail by two, or single-handedly; and she offers comforts enough for any extended cruising in between the tropics. But an Oy, if we go to Antarctica.

b.

and because you fell in love with that boat I agree, it is easy to fall in love by a beauty like that and is not only beautiful as it sails like a rocket

It is not a carbon boat but the rotating mast is in carbon as well as the beams and daggerboards . It has a Kevlar reinforced bottom, skeg protecting rudders and propellers for allowing it to dry out. It has integrated solar panels and energy saving devices to give a bigger autonomy. It weights only 5300 kg and it has two 27hp diesel engines.

Maybe after all you can sail this one to Antarctica too.

But I am quite sure this is a very expensive boat, not one I could dream to afford. I love the Grand Soleil 43 but too expensive as well as the XP44.

The Azuree 40 is the only one that is affordable and even if I like very much the interior, I cannot say the same in what regards some of the boat looks and features....but I know that a new Azuree 40 is going to appear soon....and I want that one even without seeing it. I can pretty much imagine how it is going to be But I guess that I have to stick with my boat anyway because I have to choose between having the Azuree and working for paying it, or have time for sailing: easy choice

[Polux]

And now, 3 days after the Philocat 45ft cat had arrived and 2 days after the Grand Soleil 43, the boats that are arriving now are probably the ones that interest most: inexpensive mass production main market cruisers. I say to most even if for me my preference goes clearly for boats like the Philocat or the Grand Soleil 43.

Yesterday, the last boat arriving was a First 47.7 (14 tear old design) and a Baltic 52 both performance sailing boats designed more than a decade ago. Followed a Swan 46 MKII (1989/1996), another inexpensive recent 40ft performance cruiser (mppc), an Elan 410, the first of the mass production main market market inexpensive sailboats (mpmm), an Oceanis 54, a recent performance cruiser Gieffe 51, that started fast but finished slowly (sail problems?), another Swan 46, a Swan 62RS, a new CNB60 and another inexpensive new 40ft performance cruiser, a First 40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_qEmYljlDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK92VMZ2In4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVGYTzmipM

Next, two 50ft cats, a Privilege and an older Prout, a some year's old 42ft performance cruiser, a Pronavia, a Fountain Pajot 57 and the other XC45. This excellent performance of the X45 (the other had already arrived) confirms the outstanding offshore performance of this middle weight luxury cruisers that no withstanding their classic lines and weight are very fast boats, considering that they would even have comparatively performed better if this was mainly an upwind passage: Great boats. I want to have one when I get old

Almost at the same time entered a X43 performance cruiser and a very curious boat, an Acubens 656. I have saw this boat made very good passages on other ARC, a very fast boat considered it is a steel one!!! Yes you have heard well, steel but a middle weight boat with a similar weight of an Oyster, not an heavy boat. It is designed by a Spanish Na and made with a special steel quality that allows for lighter steel boats.

[Polux]

Contuining with the boats that had already arrived (after a pause for lunch):

After that surprisingly fast big steel yacht arrived a Leopard 46, the second condo cat with less than 50ft to arrive. Many make fun about condocats but what this and other ARC shows is that they are almost as fast as performance cats in what regards downwind sailing and with the boats loaded for a transat.

They are slower than performance monohulls of the same size but about as fast as the best modern medium weoight cruisers and faster than most of those. Off course this is the performance on the ARC that is much a downwind ride. If this was an upwind passage the story would have been very different and the performance cats with daggerboards would went away easily and the condocats performance would be a lot less bright compared with the one from monohulls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvuKT5WH_VI

Next, the second Oyster 575 followed by an Hanse 575, the second mpmm inexpensive cruising boat. A great performance from the Oyster 575 on the ARC with the two big ones a 625 and this two 575 doing a great passage. Great too the Hanse 575 that costs half the price (or less) than an Oyster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGqMTaWOKw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSSRsQp0uKQ

Next two Jeanneaus 54DS, great performance to join to the sparkling performance of the Jeanneau 57 on the ARC+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRyjEcDiwUg

Next a big 77ft boat and another small performance cruiser, one with some years already, a 17 year old design, a First 40.7, then the first mpmm cruiser with less than 50ft, a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 49, followed by the first mpmm cruiser with less than 45ft, a Bavaria 42 cruiser, a 10 year old model. Great performance!!!

Next, the first Halberg Rassy, a 54ft, a recent boat, now substituted by the 55 that has the same hull. A great boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p48LFC0TA40

Then a more than a decade old Dufour Gib sea 51

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPEv0sAP3wg

next, the first medium weight luxury boat with less then 45ft, a XC42, off course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrkHnvPf-Xc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwn-uPr5eyc

then the first performance cruiser with less that 40ft, a Linjett 37 a boat with a surprisingly good performance on a downwind passage. It would do even better on an upwind one. Great sailing and certainly great boat, a classic design for the ones that prefer that type of boat. Here a movie with a sail test comparison with a Hanse 375, also a great and fast sailboat (the hull is now used by the Varianta 37).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7IVLFR_GHE

next an Hanse 430, great performance on a model with some years already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ1ic2rNeiM

A great hull is still used on the Varianta 44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL8Ygp8FEi4

Always a lot of complaints that offshore boats are expensive and bla bal bla, get a Varianta 44 and rig it to offshore use. Best boat you can have for that for the price. Next, another Oyster 575!!!, a Fountain Pajot Helia 44, the first condo cat with less than 45ft and a Swan 51 (1980/85)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8KLg4RKOD8

next, the first Amel a 54, a recent boat already substituted by the 55, a better and faster boat. The 54:
AMEL 54 - Vidéo Dailymotion
Next, another First 40 foloowed by a Cigale 16 and a Hanse 470e (at 32 Nm from the finish)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHwK29Zke_g

and at some distance (80nm from the finish) comes a beautiful 42 Swedish Yacht performance cruiser, one with a big defect: it was very expensive. At the time, around 2000 it was my dream boat and still a great fast boat with a high quality interior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egbK9JNVqq8

and that's all for now. Tomorrow will arrive more.

[Polux]

And the boats that arrived today:

That Sweden Yacht 42 (1998) that was yesterday at 80nm and that has already arrived was overtaken by a Swan 46 (1983/1997) that arrived first, then come Thula a classical 72ft Royal Huisman design:

not far a Hanse 505

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuySPgSD6ls

and very close the second Grand Soleil 43 (but an older model) and a surprisingly well sailed Halberg-Rassy 40, showing the speed potential of the new generation HR (the 40 was substituted by the 412, a faster boat) when well sailed, the first medium weight 40fter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdCLfwAl3BQ

next and close another Hanse 505, the second Lagoon 450, a Swan 441(1978/1979), the prize for the best old boat performance certainly and a Oyster 53 (2000). Followed a Jeanneau SO 45DS, an old Jeanneau 48 (1980?) and the first 40ft cat, a Lagoon 400 followed by an Oyster 56.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibB49E0u9pA

Ant that's all for today. Next boats are an Oyster 53 at 9nm form the finish, a Sweden yacht 45 at 13nm, a First 47.7 at 19 and a Malo 43 at 22. Great performance for the Malo 43, a medium weight boat designed in 2001 and still on the Malo catalog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfVvqPCXaTU

Unsupported Browser

[cruiser_wannabe]

http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/news/n...verall-in-arc/

Results are in and an HR 37 finished first on corrected time! I am happy to see this personally because this is the model of boat I own. She has been a fast and reliable boat for us.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

And the day arrivals first with a correction: That Oyster 575 that arrived yesterday slightly ahead of two SO 54DS, a First 40.7, a SO49, a Bavaria 42, a HR 54, a GiB sea 51, a XC42, a Linjett 37, a Hanse 430, a First 40 and a Hanse 470 took after all many hours more since it leaved Canary Islands 14 hours before all the others, as well as a Discovery 57 that did not arrived yet (it stopped on Cabo Verde for repairs).

After the arrival of that Malo 43 come an old Beneteau First 43.5 (1984/1987), great performance for an oldie, then a Swan 53 (1987/95) and a very well sailed Sabre 386 (2004/09) the second among the performance cruisers with less than 40ft, but behind a HR40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epXjoSe_UPI

Next come an incredibly badly sailed Pogo 40class racer, another Lagoon 400 and another SO49, a DS this time, a First 47.7 and another small boat, a Southerly 38, the first non performance cruiser with less than 40ft. An interesting middle weight new sailboat with a swing keel that shows here that it can be fast if sailed well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqwevGduab4

Next come an older Oceanis 473 (2000/05) then a new Jeanneau 53, a HR 46 (1994/05), a new Fountain Pajot Helia 44, an older First 44.7, a Fountain Pajot Lavezzi 40, a Bavaria 49, a Wauquiez 43 (1999/04) another Lagoon 450, another Oceanis 473, that discovery 57 that leaved 14 hours before all the other boats, another Oceanis 473, a First 40.7, another Lagoon 450, a Westerly 49 (1993/?) and a Amel super Maramu 2000 (1994/?), a Oyster 575 is almost arriving, an older Oceanis 411(1997/05) is not far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xMZk9k2bs

a Catamaran Privilege 37 is at 7.7nm fom the finish (the first of the less than 40ft cats):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajZ1w1AqMuA

, then follows a First 47.7 (9.9nm), a Swan 47 (15nm), a Oyster 46 (23nm) and another Beneteau 473 (28nm).

I believe this just give us just a good panorama of the boats that can make a fast Ocean passage: Big boats, but also much smaller performance cruisers, cats, generally a bit faster size by size then main market cruisers (on a downwind ride and not always) but not faster than monohull performance cruisers in a generic way. We can see also that even if older performance cruiser designs are not a match for newly designed performance cruisers they can still be a match for newly designed medium weight cruisers.

We can see that, only with the exception of that old 1981 Jeanneau 48 Trinidad, the only old sailboats with a good performance are old (very modern for their time) performance cruisers. The Jeanneau is an exception in what regards not being properly a performance cruiser but anyway a very advanced design for its time.


Regarding the other boats this picture give us a good idea of the diferences and about the sailing days needed to arrive. The last continue to be the Island Packet 38, now at 660 NM from the finish. Most of the boats you see on the tail are boats that sailed several days after the others or that stopped on Cabo Verde and are now recovering. Among the ones that are really slow, or old small boats, like a Allegro 33 and a Forgus 35, or old designs like the IP, a Mason 44 (521nm) or a Nauticat 43 (529 Nm) a Nauticat 42 (470nm) an old Amel Maramu (489nm).

It is worth to comment the performance of the only small modern mass production small cruiser, a Delphia 33 that is almost arriving at only 68nm from the finish, a hell of a performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQnfqTdHSQQ

It is also to refer the performance of an old boat that I like particularly, full keel and all, a boat that is still made (or was till recently with 33ft), the Marieholm 32, at 153nm from the finish, well ahead of a Shannon 37 (193nm) and a Rustler 36 (273nm) both else sailed boats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXkD00ijmz4

Marieholm 33class on Vimeo
By the way if you like those old designed boats and want a brand new one, as i hear a lot around this forum, Ruster has a new (old designed) one, the 37.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R1KjpNf05I

and I guess this is the last post. Lots of people viewing this thread, very few comments, except from Barnakiel. Someone wants to comment?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by cruiser_wannabe

Hallberg-Rassy - News - News

Results are in and an HR 37 finished first on corrected time! I am happy to see this personally because this is the model of boat I own. She has been a fast and reliable boat for us.

Yes that Halberg Rassy made a great and fast passage but not on the ARC that we are talking about now, but on the ARC+ that had a lot less boats and finished some days ago. The boat finished among much bigger sailboats and that says a lot about its potential speed but being first in compensated says nothing about the boat speed, only that it was very well sailed, according with the rating, the best sailed boat on that ARC+, not the fastest.

Regarding this one we have also a HR 40 that made a very fast passage, considering the type of boat, finishing among much bigger boats (but several days away from the first 40ft performance cruiser). A great passage even considering real time. Other HR had done well in this one as well as a Najad 570 and a Malo 43. Not as well as the XC yachts, 45 and 42 but all of them proved to be fast middle weight boats and personally I have no doubts regarding the reliability of these boats.

[donradcliffe]

Thanks for all the good work. On average, even the non-racing ARC fleet tends to push their boats a bit harder than cruisers on their own. Consequently there is more damage to the boats and sails.

I think that the multi vs mono performance this year is consistent with other years--you have just done more work in tracking the various types of boats. My take is that the multihulls have more speed potential downind than similar sized monos, but their characteristics keep their cruising speeds lower on long passages.

In my performance mono, my downwind rig was usually a poled out roller furling genoa and a mainsail with slab reefing. With only two people on board, the main was usually double reefed at sunset, and that sailplan provided reasonable performance from 10 to 35+ knots by adjusting the genoa size from the cockpit--a one person job. The risks involved were broken booms/poles and a roundup or rounddown broach--all manageable without outside assistance. In my last passage from the Canaries to St Lucia, I used two genoas on the same furler, which gave me even more performance without the risk of gybing/broken booms, again manageable by the one person on watch. You will note that I don't mention using a spinnaker or gennaker--with one person on watch the risk/reward ratio is just too high. I would also note that having no pole for the genoa seriously reduces performance.

In a multi with most of the sailplan in the mainsail, you don't have nearly as much performance range from the cockpit adjustments. In addition, the risk of losing control in a squall with too much sail up can lead to capsize. As a result, most multi's cruise underpowered more of the time. I suspect that the modern monos with non-overlapping jibs will also average less than their potential performance.

While some multi's do their downwind passagemaking with a small spinnaker and no main, I would still be concerned about the ability to get the spinnaker down safely in a squall. I think the solution for the cruising multi's will be a larger furling headsail that can be partially furled.

It would be most interesting to get a survey from the ARC boats to see what sailplan(s) they were using, both in the beginning and in the last half of the passage, and correlate that with their performance.

[Polux]

Great post

I believe the sails you can use as to do with the size of the crew and the size of the boat and also weight. Bigger and heavy means more sail area and more difficulty in controlling the sails.

What you describe regarding your passage and in what concerns crew is not what is normal on the ARC where most of the boats have a bigger crew (more than two) for the passage, many times a friend that will help to sail the boat on the passage and that will pick the airplane home at arrival. That makes a big difference in what regards sailing ability.

I believe the right answer to go fast with a small crew on the ARC is not only having a light boat with a very forgiving hull (type of solo racer's hull) but also have two furlers permanently installed, one with a jib other with a big genoa and a removable geenaker on a endless furler, just for very light winds. I am not "inventing" nothing it is just the normal set up on a solo racer:

Of course I would use only that geenaker for light winds...they use it with much stronger winds to make the boat plan.

Regarding that set up and modern design one of the tendencies is just for having the mast like the solo racers have, more pulled back to allow for a smaller and more manegeable main and more space for several furling sails on the front, that are easier to manage.

I agree about the spy pole but normally they are made for a geenaker or spinnaker and for a genoa a smaller one is better. Regarding going downwind a top autopilot is also fundamental. It can make a huge difference and most sailors just don't give the right importance to this. I also have always the boat with a preventer rigged when I sail downwind but like you I diminish some sail at night...unless there is moonshine and then it is just beautiful.

[Polux]

Regarding the rigs (and the average crew number) you can have a good look at what was used last year. Most boats have only one furler but many have two, including several performance boats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QOHIPpKmFQ

Another modern tendency is to have both furlers going to very close points on the masts to avoid using additional backstays.

[hoppy]

The ARC is more about the sailing "tactics" than the boats speed potential...

Some crews reduce sails at night and some don't.

From the ARC blog of the Elan 410 "Take off"
</title> <meta name="description" content=''> <meta name="keywords" content='' > <meta name="google-translate-customization" content="1909e9561d6c4182-450d752d11bb7fa3-g0abce31ac37b7fc6-16" /></meta> <link type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" href="/resc

Take Off - Our first squall
07 December 2014

Although the full moon lit our way so gently last night was quite unsmooth due to wind changes all the time. We suspected several squalls so the spinnaker went up and down all night in prevention. However we seemed everytime to “miss” them. This morning was a grey morning, no sunrise from the sea and heavy clouds ahead of us. However the heavy clouds were all along the horizon so we thought it was just normal rain. We sailed through it, got a bit wet, the wind was steady and we thought this was smooth. The wind started to blow stronger and was up to 30 knots when it then dropped gently down to 17 knots. And from nowhere a strong wind hit the boat, Jörgen stearing had difficulties in answering the wind and the broach was inevitable. And then came the real rain – just like pouring hundreds of buckets of water in the boat. Yes now we know what a squall is = local mini tropical storm that last for only 10-15 min. The spinnaker blew off and all 4 guys did a tremendous job in managing to take it in. The spinnaker is quite damaged being ripped off (reparable? we’ll see), the ropes (sorry don’t know the marine word in English) that is “fall och gajorna” loosened themselves from the spinnaker left to the ocean and our wind instrument on top of the mast fell off also left to drown in the Atlantic... It took us 5 hours (still sailing forward) to sort everything out and our Mr McGiver Nils took the honorable duty to be lifted up to the top of the mast (with a cykling helmet, it is pretty shaky up there!) to check that nothing more was damaged. He gave us thumbs up from the top. After recovering and talking things through we decided to put up our second spinnaker (the Runner). And so we sailed on.

The kids comment from down the boat playing on the iPads (today was their iPad day): “Mum that was a really fun carousel, can we do that again?” Winking smile

Now only few more days to go and we are in St Lucia!

Take Off and Louise

The Marieholm 32E Thalassa is almost at St Lucia well ahead of much bigger boats.

Om båten

Their speed in the ARC is not an indication of how it sails compared with the bigger boats behind them. It's crewed by the 24 year old Swedish guys who are going full speed to get to the pub in the quickest time possible and pull some birds.
Om oss

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hoppy

The ARC is more about the sailing "tactics" than the boats speed potential...

...

Well, it depends: A slow boat, like that IP38, not even with the best racing crew will go fast. A fast boat can go fast or slower depending on the crew but even with an average crew will be faster than a slow boat with a good crew.

Ratings give you a pretty good idea of a boat potential but not how the same boat will perform while loaded for a crossing or particularly on the trade winds with mostly downwind sailing.

Regarding averages that's why I took the trouble of not only look at the first boats to arrive but to all boats arriving till about middle of the fleet.

When I see a lot of new big Oysters doing a good time on an Atlantic passages I would no assumed that all of them had racing crews but that they are fast boats on this type of passage. When I see a lonely and older smaller Oyster 48 doing a very very fast passage I assume it has a racing crew.

When I see lots of modern main market mass production boats making fast passages, among bigger medium weight modern yachts I assume that type of boats can average that type of performance. When I see that most of the condocats are faster than modern mass production boats of the same size, I can assume that on Average and on this type of passage they are faster. When I see that those cats are not faster than most of the performance cruisers of the same size, I can assume that on those conditions, on average, they are not.

Averages is what I am interested about and on over 200 boats sailing on the same conditions we can take some conclusions regarding Averages.