Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Absolutely massive tax hit though, right?

The boat I'd plan to take is a flashy looking Catamaran. Looks very expensive and it's a one off.

VAT would probably pay for a year of air bnbs. No way around vat if you're a citizen, right?

Not if you do it right. If I understand you correctly you have US and ROI citizenship, are not an EU resident (meaning you live elsewhere and can prove it) and have a US buildt and registered boat. If that is the case it can be done. As a ROI citizen you are allowed to stay and work in any EU country forever. To make the boat stay in the EU there are two steps: 1. VAT 2. EU boat registration.

Step one: you repatriate to the home country and bring the boat with you. There is a VAT extemption for household goods upon repatriation and it includes vehicles. You need to check with ROI customs how this is done. Once you hold the VAT extemption formular you can proceed to
Step two: registering the boat on the Irish Shipping Register. For this you need a CE compliance certificate for the boat, and a survey for tonnage. The people at the register will explain and advise hiw to get them and how much it costs.
Now to step three, cruising legally as a ROI citizen and boat. You need to take an ICC examination, a radio operator course then you have the appropiate certificates. The boat needs a ship radio license and epirb registration.

Now if all of the above seems complicated (they are) and expensive (might be) and time consuming (for sure) you can check what the actual value of VAT you would have to pay. VAT is determined by last bill of sale plus age deduction or by list prices. You need to provide an actual customs office or a specialized business with details to get a real quote. How the boat looks is irrelevant. Once VAT is paid the boat can keep its US papers and you can show the irish passport and all is fine. Just be prepared to get asked about VAT and take a vacation to ROI to get an ICC and radio license.

[benvanstaveren]

Originally Posted by sepharad

I don't believe a non-commercial foreign vessel MUST have a liferaft in France. But they can come aboard and fine you if you choose to have one, that isn't date stamped the way they want. If NONE is required, how can they rationally enforce the status of one? Illogical bureaucracy.

Actually quite logical; you don't have to have one, but if you do have one it can't be expired

[Chotu]

Wow, Rumpi. Thanks.

I could have searched the internet for several weeks an still not have come up with that.

The CE certificate I heard was difficult. That I can Google for clarification. My boat was never sold. It was built and registered without any transfer of ownership. That could be tricky...

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

Not if you do it right. If I understand you correctly you have US and ROI citizenship, are not an EU resident (meaning you live elsewhere and can prove it) and have a US buildt and registered boat. If that is the case it can be done. As a ROI citizen you are allowed to stay and work in any EU country forever. To make the boat stay in the EU there are two steps: 1. VAT 2. EU boat registration.



Step one: you repatriate to the home country and bring the boat with you. There is a VAT extemption for household goods upon repatriation and it includes vehicles. You need to check with ROI customs how this is done. Once you hold the VAT extemption formular you can proceed to

Step two: registering the boat on the Irish Shipping Register. For this you need a CE compliance certificate for the boat, and a survey for tonnage. The people at the register will explain and advise hiw to get them and how much it costs.

Now to step three, cruising legally as a ROI citizen and boat. You need to take an ICC examination, a radio operator course then you have the appropiate certificates. The boat needs a ship radio license and epirb registration.



Now if all of the above seems complicated (they are) and expensive (might be) and time consuming (for sure) you can check what the actual value of VAT you would have to pay. VAT is determined by last bill of sale plus age deduction or by list prices. You need to provide an actual customs office or a specialized business with details to get a real quote. How the boat looks is irrelevant. Once VAT is paid the boat can keep its US papers and you can show the irish passport and all is fine. Just be prepared to get asked about VAT and take a vacation to ROI to get an ICC and radio license.

As far as I am aware an EU resident can register their vsl anywhere - there is no requirement that it be registered in an EU country. The place of registration has absolutely no bearing on VAT liability. You will however then be subject to VAT if you sail within EU waters.
A non-EU resident (whose boat can also fly any flag) can apply for the 18mos postponement of VAT and sail within EU waters for that period and reset the clock as necessary by going to a non-EU country. Shengen restrictions will apply but they are not applied consistently by all EU countries.

If you are non-resident currently but returning to take up EU residency then I believe you can import a boat as part of your personal chattels and that will not incur VAT. Once you have achieved that importation then you would be free to sail within the EU without incurring a VAT liability - again you can register the vessel wherever you wish.

That’s my understanding but anyone contemplating either route would be well advised to take proper advice - probably not from an Internet forum.

[boatman61]

Also, CE is only compulsory when the time comes to sell the boat on.
To do that in the EU it has to be CE compliant, it is not compulsory before then.
That was the case with a Hunter 37 I took back to the UK.. regarding VAT that can be paid at your first port of entry which if your sensible would be Horta in the Azores which is 18% as opposed to Irelands 23%..

[Matt Johnson]

Horta's appraiser is known for being a bit more lenient in allowing you're estimated value vs offical appraisal too. We ran into a few people making the stop from the West just for this reason.

Matt

Originally Posted by boatman61

Also, CE is only compulsory when the time comes to sell the boat on.
To do that in the EU it has to be CE compliant, it is not compulsory before then.
That was the case with a Hunter 37 I took back to the UK.. regarding VAT that can be paid at your first port of entry which if your sensible would be Horta in the Azores which is 18% as opposed to Irelands 23%..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Horta's appraiser is known for being a bit more lenient in allowing you're estimated value vs offical appraisal too. We ran into a few people making the stop from the West just for this reason.

Matt

Sssshhhhhhhh.!!!

[Rumpi]

There are two scenarios here:
1. He pays VAT. This is indeed better done in the Azores and he will have to clear with a local agent how much that will be. Value assesement + transport fees (customs can asses those too if they want for a owner sailed vessel) = 25% import duty (Trump tax) VAT is owned on the total sum, meaning value + transport + import duty.
Afterwards the boat can keep its US papers if he wishes.
2. He applies for Transfer of Residency relief. No duty, no VAT. He gets a form stating this from ROI customs. Making this paper acceptable to other countries customs while under US flag can pose difficulties in some countries, that's why I advised registering in Ireland. He could register whereever but irish registration is good for life, not overly expensive (a few hundred euros) and proves ownership. For a small sum he gets under the radar forever. The downside is if he wishes to cruise the US again hassle free he needs to reregister there.

CE compliance, or in his case the Post Construction Assesement is needed when the vessel is put into circulation in the EU. This is a matter of interpretation but one view is "it swims and sails it is in circulation". So EU registration papers (even something like the SSR who do not prove ownership) need CE marking. This can also be obtained in the US.

Or he can forget all of this and sail with the 90days scheme like every other US citizen.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by benvanstaveren

Actually quite logical; you don't have to have one, but if you do have one it can't be expired

So you are at sea...the mother ship is going down and your argument is it's better to have no life-raft as opposed to one that probably will work but has an expired test record?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So you are at sea...the mother ship is going down and your argument is it's better to have no life-raft as opposed to one that probably will work but has an expired test record?

Ahh.. Valhalla 360 is a good handle..
What he is actually saying is if you are sailing into French waters you do not need to carry a life raft but if you do make sure it is certified.. and in date.
If French flagged however both are compulsory.. home flag laws rule.

[boatman61]

See here for compliance list with French regulations inshore and offshore..
French Rules

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh.. Valhalla 360 is a good handle..
What he is actually saying is if you are sailing into French waters you do not need to carry a life raft but if you do make sure it is certified.. and in date.
If French flagged however both are compulsory.. home flag laws rule.

Never said it wasn't the "law" just not particularly logical.

What if I put a tag on it, "not for use as a liferaft"?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Never said it wasn't the "law" just not particularly logical.

What if I put a tag on it, "not for use as a liferaft"?

In English and French.. they don't read or speak English and then they will fine you..
You expect Logic from the State.???

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So do what lots of EU and Turk boat owners do and flag it Delaware and play the 18mth game.
Pay the VAT or play the game, its that simple.

I'm not certain but I believe that being a resident or a citizen of the EU country makes one subject immediately liable for VAT and import / custom duties if they bring in a non-VAT paid boat into the EU [and / or import a foreign made boat]. The registration / documentation of the boat is not the determining factor, the status of the owner(s) determines when and if VAT and import duties are due. At least that is how I recall such matters.

[toolbar]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I'm not certain but I believe that being a resident or a citizen of the EU country makes one subject immediately liable for VAT and import / custom duties if they bring in a non-VAT paid boat into the EU [and / or import a foreign made boat]. The registration / documentation of the boat is not the determining factor, the status of the owner(s) determines when and if VAT and import duties are due. At least that is how I recall such matters.

Yep. As I read it, it is about residency and not citizenship. You cannot be a EU resident and use the 18 month rule.

However just from the text of the law it is not clear to me, if I must be able to prove residency somewhere else (which is hard) or just give up residency where I am currently registered (easy).

You could argue, that a EU citizen with no residency or eg. residency in the USA, that stays in the Med for 18 month, has effectively returned and resumed his residency (albeit on a moving boat).

The consequences of a misinterpretation are too expensive, so I would rather not just try it out without getting legal advice first.