Asleep on Watch

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The question of whether or not single handing is immoral or not is quite a drift from the subject of this thread. There are open threads for discussing this.

It's a different question because people on OTHER boats have their own watchkeepers. People on YOUR boat have only you. See the difference? This doesn't prove that single-handing is OK, and I'm just not going there in this thread. It only proves that it is a different question.

I agree it’s thread drift but you were the one who introduced the issue of singlehanding/watchkeeping to this thread. It’s too late to say you’re not going there because you already did.

Actually you are wrong about your second statement as well. The people on your boat do not have only you. They also have the watchkeepers on nearby vessels who are obligated to be keeping a watch for you and avoid colliding with you, and they have the colregs which specify “Every vessel at all times...”

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I agree it’s thread drift but you were the one who introduced the issue of singlehanding/watchkeeping to this thread. It’s too late to say you’re not going there because you already did.

Actually you are wrong about your second statement as well. The people on your boat do not have only you. They also have the watchkeepers on nearby vessels who are obligated to be keeping a watch for you and avoid colliding with you, and they have the colregs which specify “Every vessel at all times...”

I'm really not going to argue about this, because it was not at all part of the original question (and it's also well-hashed and not all that interesting).

Sure, sleeping while single handing is a violation of Rule 5.

Does that make it OK for a watchkeeper to sleep on watch when he's not single handed? I don't think so. If you have a different opinion, that's fine with me -- that would be between you and your crew, I guess.

[GrowleyMonster]

Big difference between crewed and singlehanded sailing and watchkeeping. The solo sailor simply cannot stay awake after about 40 hours. Won't happen, without a lot of brain rotting pharmacological help, and even then, another day and he is done. The singlehander will at least take catnaps in the cockpit, with a timer. I won't debate the legality or morality of this, either way, since I myself prefer to sail solo, especially in a small boat. But on a crewed passage, anyone without health problems (that should eliminate that person for consideration as a watchstander) should be able to stay awake for four hours. No? Okay, then. When do people fall asleep? Mostly after 2200 and before 0500. A lot of European ships have a different watch schedule from the old school 4 on, 8 off. The night watch will be 2 hours long, or 3 hours, and the day watch will be longer, to make 8 hours total. A good rotation would be 2200 to 2400, 0000 to 0200, 0200 to 0400 and then the 6 hour day watches, 0400 to 1000, 1000 to 1600, 1600 to 2200. Sometimes a little flexibility is required, but a practical framework of watchkeeping responsibility is IMHO mandatory, at least for the night watches. Some boats have a night watch schedule and in the daytime, it is just whoever feels like driving for a while. A less rigid schedule during daylight hours can work well, since there are other activities during the day such as maintenance, major sail changes, cooking and housekeeping, etc.


On ships, there are always two men on the bridge. Just sayin. There is also a dead man alarm, and the button must be pressed before ten minutes elapse, or an alarm sounds. When the alarm sounds on the bridge, if it is still not pressed after a certtain time, the alarm sounds in the Captain's stateroom, and then finally throughout the ship. On some ships it is not always used, but there are still two men on watch, a Mate and an AB. A two man watch is darn good insurance, especially on the midwatch or the first half of the 4 to 8. Something to consider, if you have enough bodies aboard.

[Uricanejack]

What if even though they were awake, you suspected they might have been drinking.


This might upset me more.

[john61ct]

Toss em over, food for the sharks

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

What if even though they were awake, you suspected they might have been drinking.


This might upset me more.

This sort of situation actually happened to some friends of ours, who unbeknownst to them took on a closet alcoholic for the sail from Vanuatu to Brisbane.

It was horrible, they'd wake up and the guy would be headed somewhere else! Would not do as they said, and then there were the DT's. They had a medical situation, a crew that wasn't the help they had hoped for, and as a result of all his trying to go back to Vanuatu, averaged 2.5 kn. for the trip to Brisbane, which is an off the wind trip, in good sailing conditions.

Uricanejack, you'd be right to be more than upset, and some situations are just really very difficult to handle at all. Our friends, and the alcoholic, arrived safely, eventually, and good luck helped.

Ann

PS. I think skippers who take on unknown crew are very darn brave.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm really not going to argue about this, because it was not at all part of the original question (and it's also well-hashed and not all that interesting).

Sure, sleeping while single handing is a violation of Rule 5.

Does that make it OK for a watchkeeper to sleep on watch when he's not single handed? I don't think so. If you have a different opinion, that's fine with me -- that would be between you and your crew, I guess.

So you now agree that sleeping while singlehanding as well as while on watch in a crewed boat is a violation of rule 5, that’s real progress. [emoji4] The colregs must apply to us all equally because others out there are depending on us to follow them. Nobody gets to declare themselves so “special” that the colregs don’t apply to them.

Your last paragraph mystifies me. Now that you agree that singlehanders sleeping on watch are in violation of rule 5, how could that possibly lead to anyone thinking that sleeping on watch is ok when he’s not singlehanded? The answer is of course not.

The obligation we all have to follow the colregs, including rule 5 is a good reason for a skipper to not tolerate any sleeping by any watchkeepers on his vessel. As has been discussed at length, there’s the obvious practical consideration of the waychkeeper keeping his crew safe from colliding with everything from logs to large man made debris to other ships, but there’s also the legal and possible financial liability for the skipper if a mishap occurs and it is found that poor watchkeeping on his vessel that he was aware of is a contributing cause. Colregs rule 5 leaves a skipper no wiggle room, every vessel at all times...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

So you now agree that sleeping while singlehanding as well as while on watch in a crewed boat is a violation of rule 5, that’s real progress. [emoji4] The colregs must apply to us all equally because others out there are depending on us to follow them. Nobody gets to declare themselves so “special” that the colregs don’t apply to them.

Your last paragraph mystifies me. Now that you agree that singlehanders sleeping on watch are in violation of rule 5, how could that possibly lead to anyone thinking that sleeping on watch is ok when he’s not singlehanded? The answer is of course not.

The obligation we all have to follow the colregs, including rule 5 is a good reason for a skipper to not tolerate any sleeping by any watchkeepers on his vessel. As has been discussed at length, there’s the obvious practical consideration of the waychkeeper keeping his crew safe from colliding with everything from logs to large man made debris to other ships, but there’s also the legal and possible financial liability for the skipper if a mishap occurs and it is found that poor watchkeeping on his vessel that he was aware of is a contributing cause. Colregs rule 5 leaves a skipper no wiggle room, every vessel at all times...

I have all my life considered long distance single handing an obvious violation of Rule 5, and have written about it frequently here, but like most experienced sailors I do not condemn the practice at all, if it's done carefully. This has been discussed on CF only about a million times.

To condemn sleeping on watch with people below on the basis that no one ever should sleep, not even single handers, weakens the case against it. If people think that it's the same thing -- and it's not -- then why not sail on with a whole ship full of sleeping people and no one looking out? Most experienced sailors consider single handing to be an acceptable practice, despite the Rule 5 violation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Big difference between crewed and singlehanded sailing and watchkeeping. The solo sailor simply cannot stay awake after about 40 hours. Won't happen, without a lot of brain rotting pharmacological help, and even then, another day and he is done. The singlehander will at least take catnaps in the cockpit, with a timer. I won't debate the legality or morality of this, either way, since I myself prefer to sail solo, especially in a small boat. But on a crewed passage, anyone without health problems (that should eliminate that person for consideration as a watchstander) should be able to stay awake for four hours. No? Okay, then. When do people fall asleep? Mostly after 2200 and before 0500. A lot of European ships have a different watch schedule from the old school 4 on, 8 off. The night watch will be 2 hours long, or 3 hours, and the day watch will be longer, to make 8 hours total. A good rotation would be 2200 to 2400, 0000 to 0200, 0200 to 0400 and then the 6 hour day watches, 0400 to 1000, 1000 to 1600, 1600 to 2200. Sometimes a little flexibility is required, but a practical framework of watchkeeping responsibility is IMHO mandatory, at least for the night watches. Some boats have a night watch schedule and in the daytime, it is just whoever feels like driving for a while. A less rigid schedule during daylight hours can work well, since there are other activities during the day such as maintenance, major sail changes, cooking and housekeeping, etc.


On ships, there are always two men on the bridge. Just sayin. There is also a dead man alarm, and the button must be pressed before ten minutes elapse, or an alarm sounds. When the alarm sounds on the bridge, if it is still not pressed after a certtain time, the alarm sounds in the Captain's stateroom, and then finally throughout the ship. On some ships it is not always used, but there are still two men on watch, a Mate and an AB. A two man watch is darn good insurance, especially on the midwatch or the first half of the 4 to 8. Something to consider, if you have enough bodies aboard.

This is a good post.

I agree that a needlessly rigid watch schedule can be harmful to the effectiveness of the watch. I think I wrote about this above. My instructions to crew is that inattention and, certainly, sleeping on watch is totally unacceptable, but on the other hand, if you get too sleepy before your watch is over, that it is perfectly acceptable to ask someone to stand in for you or take over early or whatever.

Doubling watches is also good practice, when you have the bodies to do it. On my boat, we generally double the watches in bad weather, on dark nights, in traffic.

I am nocturnal by nature and usually stay up all night on passage anyway, although I am not in the watch rotation. And sleep in the morning. When it's really dark, especially when it's cloudy and/or no moon, I find it helps a lot to have the watch concentrate on the visual watch, and I take over the radar. It also helps a LOT to have someone to talk with, and make you coffee, during the darkest part of the night. If someone gets really sleepy (has rarely happened on my boat), I just send them to bed and take over the watch myself.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have all my life considered long distance single handing an obvious violation of Rule 5, and have written about it frequently here, but like most experienced sailors I do not condemn the practice at all, if it's done carefully. This has been discussed on CF only about a million times.

To condemn sleeping on watch with people below on the basis that no one ever should sleep, not even single handers, weakens the case against it. If people think that it's the same thing -- and it's not -- then why not sail on with a whole ship full of sleeping people and no one looking out? Most experienced sailors consider single handing to be an acceptable practice, despite the Rule 5 violation.

So please share how you envision a sailor, whether he has other crew on board or not, can “carefully” violate rule 5 by sleeping while on watch? If nobody is looking out on any vessel for more than a very few minutes while underway, no matter the number of people onboard, the skipper of that vessel is not being careful and he’s violating rule 5.

In order for your last paragraph to make any sense at all you must first decide that it’s ok for singlehanders to violate rule 5 and you’ve provided no justification for that. I fail to see how advocating for following a Colreg as written weakens the case against its clear intent which is “every vessel at all times.” I’ve never seen a poll of experienced sailors that you seem to be privy to but I know quite a few and they all make sure they have adequate crew to keep a continuous watch for the intended voyage before they untie the dock-lines, because it’s the only responsible thing to do.

I understand that some people ‘want’ to singlehand across oceans and are willing to rely on luck and watchkeepers on other vessels to keep them safe while they intentionally violate rule 5, but that doesn’t make it any more right than the commercial ship owner who ‘wants’ to make a greater profit by lowering crew costs so sends his ship to sea with insufficient crew to abide by rule 5 and the reason is that doing so endangers others out there who are attempting to follow the rules in good faith and expecting others to do the same. Who doesn’t enjoy the feeling of freedom and peacefulness of being alone at sea, and who wouldn’t like to make a little money from their investment? But neither understandable desire justifies going to sea with no intention of keeping a continuous watch aboard their vessel.

Though there’s no provision in the colregs for it, I would be ok if vessels with no one on watch hove to or on motorvessels used a sea anchor or even maintained bare steerageway as long as that was under about 2 knots, but turned on every exterior light except their strobe, turned on their AIS and/or radar watch alarms, and at least hourly made a pan pan call until such time as the crew was adequately rested to abide with the colregs, when they could once again get under way. I think that something like the above needs to be made a part of the colregs so that those who want to singlehand could do so legally and without posing a danger to themselves or others, and everyone would know what it meant when they came across a vessel all lit up but hove to. The current practice of some singlehanders continuing to sail at speeds that could sink another vessel if a collision occurs while actually asleep or in a tremendously sleep deprived state that reduces their mental acuity to that of a drunk driver is bound to lead to a completely unnecessary tragedy for someone out there who deserves better. When I was a teen, even though it was illegal, it was seen as pretty socially acceptable to drive home from a party while drunk and 99 times out of 100 you’d arrive safely and have a good laugh about it later. Thankfully we’ve evolved and all agree that’s no longer ok. Those who think it’s morally ok for some sailors to deliberately continue at cruising speed with nobody on watch just because it’s always been that way need to undergo a similar evolution.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

So please share how you envision a sailor, whether he has other crew on board or not, can “carefully” violate rule 5 by sleeping while on watch? If nobody is looking out on any vessel for more than a very few minutes while underway, no matter the number of people onboard, the skipper of that vessel is not being careful and he’s violating rule 5.

In order for your last paragraph to make any sense at all you must first decide that it’s ok for singlehanders to violate rule 5 and you’ve provided no justification for that. I fail to see how advocating for following a Colreg as written weakens the case against its clear intent which is “every vessel at all times.” I’ve never seen a poll of experienced sailors that you seem to be privy to but I know quite a few and they all make sure they have adequate crew to keep a continuous watch for the intended voyage before they untie the dock-lines, because it’s the only responsible thing to do.

I understand that some people ‘want’ to singlehand across oceans and are willing to rely on luck and watchkeepers on other vessels to keep them safe while they intentionally violate rule 5, but that doesn’t make it any more right than the commercial ship owner who ‘wants’ to make a greater profit by lowering crew costs so sends his ship to sea with insufficient crew to abide by rule 5 and the reason is that doing so endangers others out there who are attempting to follow the rules in good faith and expecting others to do the same. Who doesn’t enjoy the feeling of freedom and peacefulness of being alone at sea, and who wouldn’t like to make a little money from their investment? But neither understandable desire justifies going to sea with no intention of keeping a continuous watch aboard their vessel.

Though there’s no provision in the colregs for it, I would be ok if vessels with no one on watch hove to or on motorvessels used a sea anchor or even maintained bare steerageway as long as that was under about 2 knots, but turned on every exterior light except their strobe, turned on their AIS and/or radar watch alarms, and at least hourly made a pan pan call until such time as the crew was adequately rested to abide with the colregs, when they could once again get under way. I think that something like the above needs to be made a part of the colregs so that those who want to singlehand could do so legally and without posing a danger to themselves or others, and everyone would know what it meant when they came across a vessel all lit up but hove to. The current practice of some singlehanders continuing to sail at speeds that could sink another vessel if a collision occurs while actually asleep or in a tremendously sleep deprived state that reduces their mental acuity to that of a drunk driver is bound to lead to a completely unnecessary tragedy for someone out there who deserves better. When I was a teen, even though it was illegal, it was seen as pretty socially acceptable to drive home from a party while drunk and 99 times out of 100 you’d arrive safely and have a good laugh about it later. Thankfully we’ve evolved and all agree that’s no longer ok. Those who think it’s morally ok for some sailors to deliberately continue at cruising speed with nobody on watch just because it’s always been that way need to undergo a similar evolution.

That's exactly the discussion I didn't want to have in this thread. Here is the right place for it:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-199076.html

My views on the matter are inside that thread.

The thread is still open if you would like to weigh in.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's exactly the discussion I didn't want to have in this thread. Here is the right place for it:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-199076.html

My views on the matter are inside that thread.

The thread is still open if you would like to weigh in.

I’m surprised you’d make that claim since you were the first one to bring up singlehanding and your analogy to the serious responsibility of driving in a thread about sleeping on watch aboard a crewed vessel. I wasn’t the first to bring it up and wouldn’t have. I’m not particularly interested in reading any more of your views on the subject so I’ll take a pass on reviewing that other thread, but when I happen to see a statement in any thread that I think is particularly thought provoking or is a better way of doing things or is illogical or is just plain wrong or interests me for any reason, I’ll respond with my own views on the subject that’s been raised by the other poster. You can either read it or skip over it, that’s up to you. But the reason I’m having this discussion with you rather than with someone else is very simply because you brought it up.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Most experienced sailors consider single handing to be an acceptable practice, despite the Rule 5 violation.

I know it's totally off-topic, but I wonder if anyone has taken a poll? I don't think it's an acceptable practice. I'm perfectly fine with single-handed daysailing or even overnighting, where one can maintain a watch with copious quantities of coffee, but I don't support long-distance solo-sailing; and that extends beyond the Rule 5 violation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I know it's totally off-topic, but I wonder if anyone has taken a poll? I don't think it's an acceptable practice. I'm perfectly fine with single-handed daysailing or even overnighting, where one can maintain a watch with copious quantities of coffee, but I don't support long-distance solo-sailing; and that extends beyond the Rule 5 violation.

I think wise men can disagree on this issue. I don't have statistics, but among the really good sailors I know, I can count those who condemn single handing on the fingers of one hand. Which of course doesn't prove they're wrong.

[john61ct]

I agree let's keep that discussion in that thread

for those interested, well worth reading there,

otherwise the dead-horse beating all ends up getting duplicated.