Asleep on Watch

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Red Sky

You’re crewing on a passage and you come on deck for a night watch and find the current watch keeper asleep, how do you handle it?

Nothing politically correct or understanding in my reaction if I found the sole watchkeeper asleep.

I would scare the sh** out of them with a loud noise to wake them up!

That it may wake the rest of the crew up to witness our vulnerability is a warning to any other who thinks they can sleep on watch and endanger other lives .

I find fear a very stimulating inducement to stay awake and I think only scanning the horizon every 15 minutes is a ridiculous compromise on safety.

[sailorboy1]

Isn’t that closing the barn door after the horses have left, but waking the cows at the same time?

Has anyone considered that the reason the watch is asleep is the captains fault? The captain setup the conditions that resulted in a watchstander being too tired to stand watch. When I was in the Navy and we had been doing ops or drills for days people would dose off on watch, they couldn’t help it no matter what people think. When you can’t stay awake you can’t stay awake! There’s no reasoning with it!

The correct thing for a watchstander who can’t stay awake to do is to wake up someone to relive them. If that’s against the captains orders, then that’s who is to blame.

[GrowleyMonster]

There are other threads in which one can condemn singlehanding. It is off topic in this one.

[JPA Cate]

We all have our pet peeves. Mine is coming across an unlit yacht at night.

Sailorboy1's Navy experience pointed him at the core problem.

When Red Sky, a skipper of less experience than Pelagic, finds the sleeping crew person, it is naive of him to assume the guy fell asleep because he didn't take the situation seriously. [I do not mean to demean Red Sky, I'm trying to look at the situation based on years of experience.] There are just too many other possible reasons for the crew person's failure to stay awake.

In all honesty, I think Pelagic's method might work to prevent falling asleep on watch, but it comes from the "almighty skipper" perspective (no offense intended, Pelagic), and fails to take into account the possible skipper-based errors. Now, I suspect, but don't know, that Pelagic, someone with many years of experience, may have already eliminated the possible skipper based errors, and so his method is more justifiable, for him.

In my case, I would do as I originally suggested, send them to bed, check everything, and deal with it when I'd settled down, and the crew was rested. People have different management styles, and till I know I'm a perfect skipper, I know I have to look at my end of things really carefully. It's one of the ways to improve, and there is always room here for improvement. Others' mmv.

On edit: Also, if I were the crew person awakened by the loud noise, I'd leave the boat, at the first opportunity. I don't work for the one who just scared the heck out of me; I don't have to tolerate being shouted at, either. We're supposedly doing this for fun, as cruisers, and --I guess it's my bias-- think we should treat each other with compassion.

Ann

[Tricolor]

Are we talking here about pleasure boats..? some talk if its a military drill, some even want to carry weapons aboard. No this is not what i want to experience on a, what supposed to be a, fun way of spending time on the water. If somebody falls asleep during a watch the captain should look in the mirror and find out what he did wrong..! I hope never to meet some of these "captains"..

[Calif.Ted]

The OP said he was crew, and went to relieve other crew, a lot of folks are looking at this with their Captain's hat on.
So, as CREW, you have no authority to tongue lash another crewman, not your job and it's not going to accomplish anything. You ignore him, let him wake when he will, they will either speak up or not. Most people are going to talk, a lot, most will make excuses. Let them answer questions about why they didn't come below when relieved.
You are dealing with adults, either responsible or not, and you can't change them so best to know sooner.

.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

mmv.

On edit: Also, if I were the crew person awakened by the loud noise, I'd leave the boat, at the first opportunity. I don't work for the one who just scared the heck out of me; I don't have to tolerate being shouted at, either. We're supposedly doing this for fun, as cruisers, and --I guess it's my bias-- think we should treat each other with compassion.

Ann

Hi Ann, I think this is the first time in all these years that we have respectfully disagreed[emoji20] [emoji4]

We come from different cruising worlds where Jim and you are a tight experienced pairing each with strengths and weaknesses including being very limited in numbers underway

My perspective is as a professional captain who will always bring in the numbers to allow every watch keeping crew.... ample off-watch sleeping hours to be rested. Whether on my own yacht or commercial.

My Guiding principals of Command:

1. I dont care if the lookout of a solo or undercrewed yacht, fish boat, ship is asleep under way. I have seen enough total losses, deaths, attributed to that to be determined that it will Never Ever Happen, under my command!

My " Comittment" is to make sure my crew are trained to be alert for any and all visible and hidden dangers in our path, as well as on board.

2. I don't buy into the philosophy that pleasure yacht crew are somehow exempt from that same responsibility, (to the best of their abilities)

3. This is where assessing the condition of the watch keeper when they take over, is a critical part of my training, which I pass on to all crew....
..."to be alert to their relief's ability. "

Obviously if they are seasick or have another illness, you support them by sharing thier watch with them.
I usually am alert and up at each watch change, ostensibly to talk about the weather, but really to assess their condition.

4. Now to the nitty gritty of irresponsible crew. This is the type who watches a movie or reads a book, when they really should be getting some sleep before going on a solo watch.

How can you help them?
Experience will tell me which ones to watch and encourage them to "get some sleep"

However, if at 5 am when they had only come onto their two hr watch at 4am, I find them fast asleep, a loud bang will be made right beside their ear.

Why?.... This is my last attempt to help them.

Once the cobwebs are cleared I will say to them in a clear calm voice:
"How would you feel if that noise was you getting T boned by another larger vessel whose watch keeper was also asleep ?..."
...."Im guessing your waking thought would probably be... I have just killed everyone down below!"

Nothing else is said, no need to yell and I spend the rest of their watch with them as they digest what has happened.
Normally i will get a sincere apology and a promise that it will never happen again

I sincerely hope they have learned a critical safety lesson in responsibility and i will monitor their attitude.

If they decide to leave due to guilt or anger at getting scared, that is not my concern. ....The standard of watchkeeping and lookout is.

I just hope they don't ask me for a letter of recommendation![emoji4]

[Uricanejack]

I get your point even though I don't have a Captains hat.

I still presumed it was my boat. Someone I had left on watch while I was bellow.
I personally don't stand on formality. On my boat, when sailing on another boat. I prefer an informal environment. I don't cruise as far or for as long as might be implied by this forum.

The circumstances of the transgression are not elaborated. The formality of the situation and experience and expectations not clear. So my answer fits only my boat and my expectations and my voyage. On my own boat I choose to sail with friends and family.
I would wake them up send them to bed and take over. I would not make a big deal about it.

I have friends & Family. Who. I am not comfortable taking sailing. I am not comfortable taking responsibility for them. In my case they are people who's judgement I would not to trust. While I might enjoy their company ashore. I don't want to be responsible for them. So far its not been due to someone falling asleep.

I have sailed on a commercial basis for a sailing school and charter company. Both as a client and an employee. Very different levels of formality,experience, circumstances and expectations.

My response would vary accordingly.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

So, as CREW, you have no authority to tongue lash another crewman, not your job and it's not going to accomplish anything.

You have a point, but as someone who was previously asleep and depending on this person to keep me safe from harm, I would think I have a vested interest. Presumably, I would also have some inkling as to how the Captain is affecting the crew, if at all; and might also by then have sussed out the cut of the offender's jib.
I too have lived through ridiculous exercises in sleep-deprivation in the Navy. When I head-bobbed while standing up (microsleep), I took action to keep myself awake, including warning the other OOW (I can't remember if I was OOW or 2OOW); it would have been futile trying to find a relief as all of the watchkeepers were dog-tired during work-ups. Thankfully the RCN no longer does that. I have at other times had to wake-up lookouts or the boatswain's mate, sometimes more than once. It's easy enough to figure out if a person is making an effort to stay awake or if they don't give a fig. All of these factors will affect the approach I would take in the scenario. The bucket of water is the punishment for a first offence out of Black Book of the Admiralty (iirc).

[Uricanejack]

I don't make epic cruising voyages across Oceans, past Capes or around Horns.

A couple of years ago I went a bit further than usual. Portland to Pt Roberts. Epic enough for me and my Son.
Astoria to Neah Bay. Was into a NW wind. A bit tougher than I expected. My head was dropping while I was steering. I was pretty darn close to falling asleep standing up while steering.

Both of us were exhausted. I learned something.

It wouldn't have been the crew falling asleep.

[JPA Cate]

No worries, Pelagic. Different ships, different long splices.

Now, here's a link to something I think all of us would like to be aware of: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Ann

[Pieta]

Originally Posted by Red Sky

I think I’d treat it a little more seriously. Stand up, get something to drink or eat, walk around the cockpit. Pretty hard to fall asleep when you’re standing.

I once had a quartermaster who could!

[JPA Cate]

I'm not quite ready to let this thread die.

I kept thinking of how different from Pelagic's my approach would be (note: I have only been skipper on our boats when Jim was asleep, much more like a Mate than a skipper).

Here are some of my reasons:

We never have sailed with someone we didn't know well enough to trust--this is very different from taking on crew for numbers, when for you, numbers means easier watches. We have rarely even daysailed with someone who has not been on a boat before; most of our friends have their own boats. We would rather stand our long watches than have the responsibility for the lives of strangers.

I hope you guys see how brave this makes the commercial mariners.

We are amateurs; they are professionals.

Those of you who take on crew, in my view, take on a serious responsibility, for the training of crew. It is foolhardy to make the assumption that a landlubber will have any skills relative to watch keeping. You have to try and get them to understand that the consequences for falling asleep may be death, and, for others, not just themselves. The skipper sets the tone, and the crew needs to know that he bears the ultimate responsibility.

I stay awake because I was taught as a child that if something were worth doing, it was worth doing to the very best of my ability. This program is not all good, but I would feel terribly ashamed if I fell asleep on my watch. I purely won't allow it to happen. No one has ever shamed me for falling asleep, and Jim has always made it clear to wake him for anything, which I, biased as I may be, think all skippers "should" do. After all these years, I feel free to wake him if I want help, or need it. I make a fair wee bit of effort to not need it. And I am aware that pride goeth before a fall.

Ann

[Pelagic]

Nice post Ann and it only confirms that a proper attitude on watch, together with teamwork, is far more important than anything else.

Our difference is that professionally, Time and Weather demands often would mean i need more crew to meet my client's schedule.

Early days, 12 pick-up crew on a tough delivery of a 65' Maxi from Vancouver to Antigua, departing December was precisely because I knew Crew attrition would be high on the first Stormy leg to San Diego.

Super yachts have multifunctional crew and while the Ocean crossings and watchkeeping standards should be high, occasionally, an otherwise talented crew, would see it as a paid holiday and I needed to realign their attitude.

So yes, my commercial training meant that I needed to know how to manage crew as an asset, but I also gave those interested valuable training and the opportunity to reinforce their own offshore skills.

while sailing your own yacht is far less demanding, the enroute challenges are still the same.

My partner and I prefer to be alone and happily sail our Stargazer by ourselves on short passages of less than 36 hrs.

However, my partner while always alert and conscientious, finds any passage longer than that stressful, if we don't have a backup.

She just doesn't have your experience Ann and will call me quite often, which worries her that I am getting worn out.

So my 'retirement' attitude is that I don't need her stress to give me stress either!! [emoji7]

Therefore....I am happy to have another couple sail with us so that at night, a new person comes on watch every 2 hrs, to reinforce a 2 person lookout.

Luckily we have the room to invite others to join us and that is probably my most favourite trait, that a larger yacht gives us.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Tricolor

Are we talking here about pleasure boats..? some talk if its a military drill, some even want to carry weapons aboard. No this is not what i want to experience on a, what supposed to be a, fun way of spending time on the water. If somebody falls asleep during a watch the captain should look in the mirror and find out what he did wrong..! I hope never to meet some of these "captains"..

While it’s certainly possible that the captain could have set up conditions that contributed to the watchkeeper falling asleep, it wasn’t so stated by the OP. On long offshore passages it’s pretty much assumed that everyone will be fatigued to some degree and we all have to find ways to deal with that. There will be a disturbance to our normal sleep cycle and we will feel motion and hear noises that we’re not accustomed to. Even once we’ve settled into a watch schedule, there will be unscheduled events like night sail changes/adjustments or falling off a big wave that will disturb our sleep. So for most of us, some degree of fatigue just comes with the territory of offshore sailing but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to sleep on watch.



You’re right that sailing is supposed to be a fun activity but that doesn’t mean that it’s ok to be irresponsible and potentially put your fellow crew members in danger. Finding yourself in an avoidable dangerous situation is not fun. Both while acting as skipper and as crew, Ive been fortunate in that I’ve always had good crew with only 1 exception. Along with some small amount of useful knowledge, a decent sense of humor and ability to get along well with others, a willingness to cheerfully help out with all tasks, a good crew member needs to be responsible so that all other crew members know they can count on him to do what he’s supposed to be doing, and sleeping on watch isn’t it. That sort of cheerful, helpful, responsible crew member helps make it fun for all aboard.