Bad experience with a yacht broker, appreciate some advice

[eirikr]

Hi all,

I am pretty new to this community. I have been reading and learning a lot from this forum, but feel sorry that I have to share my experience on my first post here.

My sailing experience are lasers and F-18 racing. I have been researching trimaran and looking to buy a Corsair or Dragonfly trimaran for the past year or so. This is my first boat purchase and a few weeks ago I found a 2000 Corsair F24 Mk 2 in Comox, Vancouver Island, BC. Prior to viewing this F24, I checked out a Corair Sprint before but want a boat with a cabin. I also checked out other monohull around 30’, including a Yamaha 30 and a J boat. I am also interested on the F28, but feel that F24 suits my needs better.

I'd like to share my experience dealing with the yacht broker and the yacht brokage firm. This is the very first time I work with a yacht broker and a brokage firm, and the experience was extremely disappointing, to say the least. I will appreciate some advice.

BTW, most of the experience I share, is backed by actual text messages and emails, with a few from phone conversation.

My experience is in Lasers and F18 racing, so a F24 is a logical choice for me as a first boat. I want a fast boat that I can also learn how to singlehand. I also really enjoy soloing the club’s Nacra 5.0 and flying a hull with it. I have taken some racing courses and I have a racing certificate from the program. I plan to daysail most of the time but also want to do some weekend and short camping style trips. I will be sailing around Vancouver BC and the Gulf Islands.

I found the boat on Craiglist, listing was posted by the owner, who put the broker as contact. Emailed the broker and arranged a viewing a few days later. Broker was accomodating, as I was travelling from Vancouver to the Island and couldn't make it to the marina until 7pm. My sailing partner and I checked out the boat for a bit more than an hour. Boat seems solid and condition seems quite clean, given my very limited knowledge on sailboat. I was told the boat will come with a brand new Yamaha outboard. So I told the broker that I wanted to proceed. This will be my first boat and I've never worked with yacht broker before, so will appreciate his knowledge and expertise to guide me on the process. I asked about boat survey and was told that it would take weeks or even months to schedule one because surveryors are quite busy in that area. The broker also told me that title transfer is complicate and suggested a title transfer company to handle the paperwork for $500+.

Viewing was on Monday July 31, and there’s an upcoming long weekend on Aug 5-7. I texted the broker on Aug 1 that I’d like to make an offer, subject to viewing maintenance history/all available receipts/documents, detail list of equipment, inspection of the boat and sail inventory, safety inspection on the trailer, sea trial and survey, and owner showing how to move the boat to the trailer and how to raise/lower the mast. During this time I repeatedly asked the broker about the boat license, because I didn’t see any license number on the boat. He never replied to my question and finally I found out from Transport Canada that boat under 10HP doesn’t require license. And getting title transfer requires only the bill of sale, signed copies of both parties IDs, and a colour photo of the side view. The broker didn’t bother to find out the answer and just told me to call the title transfer company. I also asked about boat insurance, then later found out by myself that boat insurance usually require a survey. Again, the broker didn’t inform me this basic fact, despite I have asked him for his “knowledge and expertise”. The listing also said the boat comes with slip until end of Aug. I asked the broker about extending the slip until end of Sept, but were told to just call the marina myself. Turned out the marina doesn’t allow slip transfer and I will have to get a new slip after I purchase the boat.

At this point I started to feel that the broker wasn’t doing his job. He never answered my ligitimate and logical concerns and questions. I had to do all the works myself. I texted him repeatedly to add my subjects on the offer, but he never responsed to it, and just kept asking me to sign the offer, which the only subjects are, and I quote:

"Subject:
1. Marine survey satisfactory to purchaser
2. Sea trial satisfactory to purchaser"

I have no idea if this is an accepted practice or not. Call me naive and still wanted to proceed at that time, I signed the offer, with less than 5 precent lower than the asking price. And promptly paid the deposit in bank draft to the title transfer company.

As for the survey, I went to local marine supply store and easily got referral to several surveyors and got my appointment in 3 days. Not weeks or months.

I called the broker the day before the survey, twice, and again texted him to confirm the time with the owner. He never contacted the owner and I got so fed up that I finally called the owner myself and confirmed with him within seconds. Oh boy how difficult or time consuming can that be?

Since the first viewing of the boat the only pressing messages from the broker were pushes to send in my offer. None of my questions and concerns were addressed. The broker replies were also mostly very short and I felt disrespected because my questions were simply ignored.

To me, my subjects all seems reasonable and logical, and I quote the actual text message I sent to the broker:

“Can you please add the following details to the offer? Those are the details we talked and texted but aren’t written on the offer:

All the repairs, maintenance history, recipes of the new Yamaha 6HP engine(with model number)

Please specify the make and model of the electronics:
-Autohelm
-Chart-Plotter with charts (Which charts are included?)
-Depth sounder

Moorage at Comox Valley Marina until Aug 31, 2023”

After I notified the broker the survey time, there's no response whether he will be at the survey or not. And of course, at this stage the owner and I simply don't care whether the broker will be there to facilitate the survey, or anything at all.

Fortunately most of the communication are in text messages so I have records.

After I met the owner for the survey, the owner told me he is also very frustrated with the broker's "services". Or should I say, “non-services?” IIRC, he said the listing was delayed and took almost a month to list on their company’s website after they signed the contract. The broker was also deceiving. After the viewing on July 31 I asked the broker to contact the owner immediately so the deal can proceed ASAP before the long weekend, but was told that the owner is travelling and will be away for the long weekend and not available to answer my questions, which are completely untrue after I met and confirmed that with the owner. The owner told me he wasn't away and wasn't doing anything on that weekend either. This deal could have been completed much sooner and much smoother, in my opinion, should the broker spent a just few moments to facilitate it. The broker didn’t even bother to spend 10 sec to forward my text message about documents, sail inventory and list of equipment to the owner so the owner can prepare them for the survey and sea trial. I have cash on hand and no financing is needed. If this is not one of the easiest deal to close should the requested documents prepared and survey/sea trail check out, I don’t know what is.

This is his actual text reply:
“These are all details that you would have learned during the time you spent with [the owner].

Model numbers of equipment, motor etc.
....
“

What in the world have the broker done? If I have to do everything myself?? Isn’t getting those information BEFORE I made an offer the sincere, correct and logical way?? I had no contact information of the owner before I made the offer.

I emailed the Founding President of the brokage with my frustration with the broker and the non-services. He called me quickly to apologized for my experience with this broker. He also told me he is not involved in the day to day anymore but the CEO was on vacation and will return on Monday, that forwarding my email to the CEO at the time will upset him and promised to followup by next Wed. So I patiently waited for the followup.
Guess what? I have to followup again on Thursday. CEO emailed me on Friday, said will call to discuss my experience. Received call but he claimed to be in rural area and cell phone was bad and hard to hear and we discussed nothing. CEO ended the call abrutly but never bother to call/text/email back. It is the next next Wednesday now. What a joke. Can you imagine a more disappointing, frustrating and disrespecful customer experience from a yacht broker and brokage firm?? Despite claiming to have 5 offices, and I quote from their website:

“1. We love people and we love boats. We bring people and boats together in a fun and supportive way.
2. Our team culture fosters enduring relationships, turning clients into friends.
3. We use trust, not tactics, whether you are buying or selling.”

With friends like these who needs enemies?
It was*Mark Twain*who said, “Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often.” This has become my favorite saying, both with regards to customer experience and to life in general. I've used this quote recently with kids, and it's an important code to live by.

One more thing: The President also told me I should close the deal first then they will followup “in the middle” of next week. Said they have 8 deals going on and was overwhelmed, with 21 staff. BAD advice.

The broker called me after I talked to the President. I tried to continue the discussion in a professional manner to close the deal. Unfortunately the discussion ended without reaching any type of consent that respected my legitimate questions and concerns. I was very, very disappointed. It was a terrible first boat purchase experience dealing with broker.

My trust with this broker has already been severely damaged, and subsequent communication ended with even more disappointment, to the point of me feeling threatened by the broker to just close the deal and pay for the boat as is, as the broker refused discourteously to renegotiate the price based on the survey and sea trial results. Basically we were told to just take it or leave it, as is. Words being said that was disrespectful and felt like an insult to my sailing partner. Bad manner, bad interpersonal and communication skill? Cultural insensitivity? I try not to judge people, but I do know I don't ever want to talk or hear from this person again.

Isn’t it normal to renegotiate the price after survey and sea trial, if something wrong is discovered?? I asked for the sail inventory, and wanted to inspect the sails. But only the main and jib were shown. How do I know what I am getting, if they are not written on the offer?? I asked to see the documents and receipts, and none were present. I asked for make and models and details of the electronics, and got nothing. Am I supposed to just trust them without written them down on the offer??

The date of the survey and sea trial, I arrived the marina and met with the surveyor on time. The owner texted me half an hour earlier saying he is in emergency room but will make it 30 min late. Sea trial went like this: 5-10 min motored out of the marina, 5-10 min raised the main and jib in very light wind, then dropped the sails and motored back to the marina. It is a brand-new-not-broken-in-yet motor so we weren't even half throttle. Not much of a sea trial, but I am not going to ask a 70+ years old who just released from ER for heart condition to extend the sea trial. It’s just the right thing to do.

So nothing that I asked, repeatedly, were present during the survey and sea trial. Sea trial was short and not to my satisfactory. Nothing that I specified were written on the offer. No detail list of sail inventory, equipments, and documents. I believe I have spent enough valuable time, if nothing I asked were present, why would I not reduce my offer price? And the broker has the gut to tell me that I either buy the boat as is or leave it.

I promptly withdrew my offer and later got my deposit back.

But what a terrible first boat buying experience with yacht broker and brokage firm. The sailing and boating community deserves to know my experience.

Many thanks for your valuable time, if you made it this far.

[Pete7]

There are some good ones and some complete cowboys, think failed second hand car salesmen.

If you still want the boat and the survey came back okay, why not deal directly with the owner and pay him. The broker will want his cut, but the vendor can sort that out after you have the boat.

Pete

[mvweebles]

Best I can tell, broker wasn't fully engaged but not unethical. Some of your expectations were mildly inappropriate. My sense is you expected him to protect your interests in the sale process. As far as him ghosting you, that's not great, especially if your questions to him were succinct and direct.

Much of the disconnect was perhaps due to a relatively low value (i.e. low commission) and unusual boat (I doubt the broker had dealt with many vessels with engines smaller than 10hp so understandable he didn't know it wouldn't require a license).

Enjoy the boat. Purchase process won't mean much when you're halfway around Vancouver Island

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by eirikr

My trust with this broker has already been severely damaged, and subsequent communication ended with even more disappointment, to the point of me feeling threatened by the broker to just close the deal and pay for the boat as is, as the broker refused discourteously to renegotiate the price based on the survey and sea trial results. Basically we were told to just take it or leave it, as is. Words being said that was disrespectful and felt like an insult to my sailing partner. Bad manner, bad interpersonal and communication skill? Cultural insensitivity?

THIS READS AS IF HE CONSIDERED YOU TO BE A PAIN IN THE ARSE. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD OF BUSINESS. WHAT LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THE BROKER WAS LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR INTERESTS OR WORKING FOR YOU?

Originally Posted by eirikr

Isn’t it normal to renegotiate the price after survey and sea trial, if something wrong is discovered??... Am I supposed to just trust them without written them down on the offer??

WHO CARES IF IT IS "NORMAL" OR NOT? INSIST ON YOUR CONDITIONS AND DO NOT TRUST THEM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Originally Posted by eirikr

The date of the survey and sea trial, I arrived the marina and met with the surveyor on time. The owner texted me half an hour earlier saying he is in emergency room but will make it 30 min late. Sea trial went like this: 5-10 min motored out of the marina, 5-10 min raised the main and jib in very light wind, then dropped the sails and motored back to the marina. It is a brand-new-not-broken-in-yet motor so we weren't even half throttle. Not much of a sea trial, but I am not going to ask a 70+ years old who just released from ER for heart condition to extend the sea trial. It’s just the right thing to do.

THAT IS YOUR CHOICE AND YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. IF YOU WANT TO RISK YOUR MONEY WITHOUT A THOROUGH SEA TRIAL, DON'T BLAME ANYONE ELSE.

Originally Posted by eirikr

So nothing that I asked, repeatedly, were present during the survey and sea trial. Sea trial was short and not to my satisfactory. Nothing that I specified were written on the offer. No detail list of sail inventory, equipments, and documents. I believe I have spent enough valuable time, if nothing I asked were present, why would I not reduce my offer price? And the broker has the gut to tell me that I either buy the boat as is or leave it.

I promptly withdrew my offer and later got my deposit back.

But what a terrible first boat buying experience with yacht broker and brokage firm. The sailing and boating community deserves to know my experience.

AFTER MORE BUSINESS EXPERIENCE, YOU WILL TRY TO DETERMINE AT THE OUTSET IF A PERSON OR BUSINESS IS ONE YOU ARE WILLING TO DO BUSINESS WITH. SOUNDS PRETTY TYPICAL. I DOUBT ANYONE WILL BE SURPRISED. DON'T TRUST ANYONE. GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING. PAPER YOUR DEALS AS IF YOU ARE PREPARING TO SUE THE OTHER PARTY. DON'T DEAL WITH ANYONE WHO STRIKES YOU AS PRETENTIOUS OR DISHONEST.

[Sailing August]

The broker is just there to facilitate the deal....nothing more.
Do not expect much for them. You are on your OWN to do your OWN due diligence.
The broker can and will tell you ANYTHING.....they have no liability to the deal or you.
The only person that works for you is.....YOU

[Chotu]

Sounds like every worker in every industry right now. Don’t expect much from anyone.

Next time you go through this, use this form.

https://www.catamaransite.com/files/..._Agreement.pdf

Sign this agreement or one just like it with the same terms and just follow it to the letter. Work with the seller if you have to. Don’t try to involve the broker if they aren’t working.

I would have just went around that broker’s back and went direct with the seller in your case.

The broker is not there to help you. He is not your friend. He is actually only there to close the deal. He is there for no other reason. And he will close the deals that make him the most money in the least amount of time.

[Jebtrois]

So get your own broker. Slow down. Don't buy any boat without a survey and working out the slip and insurance in advance. You control the purse strings so demand (courteously) what you want or stop the deal. It's just a boat.

[CarlF]

You have a common misunderstanding about brokers. Their income comes from commissions. The more sales (and bigger sales) they can make per week, the higher their income. It’s a business.

You don’t mention the price of the boat but I’m assuming it was not an expensive boat. For a boat worth less than $100,000 a broker is making a relatively small commission - so he can’t afford to spend a lot of time on the sale.

You were taking too much time on an inexpensive boat. A “time waster”. If you had been buying a $1 million boat you would have gotten more attention.

Note that the same is true for sellers. A boat that doesn’t sell quickly because it is priced too high gets less and less attention from the broker until the seller gives up and cuts price or switches brokers.

The commissioned broker system is often bad for both buyers and sellers - but it’s how almost all used boats are sold.

I’m actually surprised the broker spent as much time as he did with you.

[boatpoker]

It's a shabby industry from brokers to surveyors, techs, marina management and insurance.

Serious due diligence is required in every aspect.

Hope you find your way.

[S/V Illusion]

The first 2 things to learn before buying a boat are:
1. Brokers work for themselves, not you, and
2. Like politicians, surveyors come in all varieties regardless of the rhetoric.

[desodave]

First, welcome to the forum eirkir. I live about 3km from the marina where the boat is moored. It is a mistake to think that the selling broker is working for you ... they're working to sell the boat and collect their commission. I've looked up the listing and the sale price ... not to hard for a local to figure out the brokerage. The price on the boat means that the brokerage gets $3,500 if sold at the list price (and the standard 10% fee) with the broker getting a %age of that. He obviously doesn't believe that small fee is worth any substantial effort on his part and feels you're dealing directly with the owner anyway.

The waitlist for a decent experienced surveyor is what the broker told you and reflects my own experience on the lower Island 2 years ago. Yes, you can find a surveyor more quickly but often with little experience in the type of boat you're looking at. My insurance company maintains a list of "acceptable" surveyors ie they'll give you insurance based on that surveyor (but still not necessarily experienced in your type of boat).
Re-negotiating a price based on the survey is common practice but is based on defects shown in the survey results. Make sure everything you want is listed in your original offer.
Hope you have a better experience next time, but be more realistic. You have to protect your own interests. Especially in this price range, you're not going to get much broker interest.

[NorthCoastJoe]

As others have said " Broker is only in it for the sale" They don't know much about any one boat.

My experience with surveys has been bad. I have had obvious serious issues not mentioned in the survey. And minor problems listed that were quick to take care of, but not the major ones. The survey of a boat means nothing to me at this point It's a waste of paper and money. Yet insurance companies and some marinas require them.

You need to take time and go stem to stern, keel to masthead over the entire boat yourself and with a helper if you need one. Move everything that is in the way of getting eyes or hands on every part of the boat. This may take all day or longer, don't let anyone rush you. If your being rushed suspect there are problems that are hidden.

I am not a pro at this, but from what I have seen the pros have been worthless.

[wholybee]

The broker owes you nothing. The broker works for the seller. His job is to get you to submit and offer. It sounds like the broker might not have been doing his job for the seller, but otherwise doesn't work for you.

The typical procedure is that you would submit an offer that contains your stipulations and contingencies. That is, you offer to buy the boat, provided the seller does x, y, and z. X, y, and ,z would include the survey, sea trail, and equipment that you want to ensure is included (the new outboard), etc.

The contingency allows you to cancel the offer if the survey finds something wrong, or offer a lower amount, or require the seller to fix it.

Transfer of title is usually fairly simple. However, you may opt to pay for a service for the insurance. If the service is worth what you are paying for, they will research the title to make sure it is clear of any liens, etc. The last thing you want is to buy a boat that has an unpaid loan, and then have the bank (legally) come and take if from you with you having no recourse. The broker might be suggesting this for his own protection, so that in the event that happens, he isn't involved in the lawsuit.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Transfer of title is usually fairly simple. However, you may opt to pay for a service for the insurance. If the service is worth what you are paying for, they will research the title to make sure it is clear of any liens, etc. The last thing you want is to buy a boat that has an unpaid loan, and then have the bank (legally) come and take if from you with you having no recourse. The broker might be suggesting this for his own protection, so that in the event that happens, he isn't involved in the lawsuit.

The deal in question is in Canada. There are no "titles" for boats in Canada. The change of ownership in Canada has already been explained here and it's incredibly simple. A 15 minute visit to the local "Services Canada" office with your bill of sale, I.D.s, photo of boat and it's done.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The deal in question is in Canada. There are no "titles" for boats in Canada. The change of ownership in Canada has already been explained here and it's incredibly simple. A 15 minute visit to the local "Services Canada" office with your bill of sale, I.D.s, photo of boat and it's done.

Understand. That doesn't invalidate concerns about a clear title. Title simply means who owns the boat, there doesn't need to be a "title" registered or printed on paper.

If there is zero chance someone has a lien on the boat, no problem.