Best keel type for offshore trip

[Kettlewell]

Every boat is a sum of many parts. I have not officially crossed an ocean but have made offshore passages with long fins and skeg-hung rudders, long fins and spade rudders, long keels and keel-hung rudders, and a cat with long shallow keels and spade rudders. They each have their virtues. If I had to pick one boat for pure comfort offshore it would be the heavy, older full keel boat with the keel-hung rudder. It also steered brilliantly. A tiller pilot connected to the wheel would steer it quite well! Upwind I could just lock the wheel and it would steer itself. OTOH, running off before big winds and seas I liked the long fin and skeg-hung rudder combo, with tiller steering. She went like she was on rails downwind, and the faster we went the lighter the steering got. Personally, I would not choose a boat specifically for its keel type, but instead for how it meets all sorts of requirements I have.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by massnspace

Hello All

I have been sailing for 4 decades. Mostly coastal saltwater on both coasts. Boats from 27 to 43 feet. Older boats but always tried to put safety first.

I am now seriously considering buying a boat to do longer coastal and offshore trips. Around Vancouver Island first. To Alaska and back. And then down the coast to Cabo and hopefully through the canal back up to the east coast. These trips will be mostly solo, but my wife will visit from time to time.

I am certain I want a well-built boat with a cutter rig, or at the very least an inner forestay to manage the sail plan. I am certain I will be using a windvane for steering as often as I can.

I am in relatively good health, but as I get older I want a boat that is pretty easy to handle.

My question: What type of keel would be best for this adventure? I am not keen on a deep fin and deep rudder. Not going to be racing and worried about tracking and/or damage or fouling such deep appendages. I am also not keen on a full keel as I want to go upwind. So thinking a shallower fin with skeg-hung rudder is best. But is it? Is it better to just buy a full-keel, heavy boat to be more comfortable when the going gets rough? Do windvanes work better with a certain type of keel?

Thank you for your time in helping me with this question.

David
Seattle

I would suggest moderation in all things.

A moderate low aspect fin keel.

No long overhangs but no extreme flat sections frd of the keel that will knock your fillings out when she starts slamming when going to windward in a seaway.

A well designed spade rudder is better than a poorly designed skeg and v/v. Look not just at the rudder but what is going on inside the boat with the rudder post and or the attachment of the skeg to the hull.

Canoe sterns are the work of the devil but you don't want a 'big bummed boat' either.

Windvanes work best with a balanced sail plan and a moderate fin, ie a boat that will track well with not much input from the helmsman when hand steering.

Cutter rig is good which is improved no end if you can set an assortment of hank on storm jibs on your inner forestay.

All of the above works for me.

That's about it. Be aware that this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. To give it added value feel free to send a slab of cash, used notes, plain brown envelope

[GWB]

Forgot to add, the full keel tracks beautifully. The autopilot which is a self learning raymarine EV stops trying to correct the boat in some conditions because it leans that the boat will correct itself. The Aries was easy to mount and works great with the long keel as well

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

The biggest way to save money is to make the basic fiberglass structure lighter and require less labor.
A shallow lightweight arc-bottom hull with a bolted-on fin of cast iron is far easier and cheaper to build than a deep hulled boat that needs enough thickness and strength, (weight,) to carry tons of expensive lead in an encapsulated or bolted on keel without having to rely on some egg-crate grill to hopefully support it.

There are many reasons to choose one keel form over another. Some are legitimate. Some are personal preference. Some are completely baseless (and by baseless, I mean without legitimate justification, as the vast majority of sailors do not have sufficient depth of experience across multiple hull forms in multiple conditions with sufficiently solid memory to be able to legitimately compare them -- I for one have many thousands of miles on a full keel heavy displacement ketch in the seventies, and many more thousands since then in fin keel boats, but I couldn't begin to compare the ride between the two boats because my memory is inadequate.)

But this argument that the primary or even major driver to fin keels is because of cost savings defies all logic. Race boats put cost nearly last in their equation, and are 100% fin keel. Bob Perry and other designers rarely are given "least expensive hull possible" as a top level design criteria (and I suspect Bob's fin keel designs out number his full keel designs 10 to one or more).

Cost assuredly entered into the search process for our current boat. But no full keel boats entered the discussion, even though the vast majority would probably have been less expensive. Performance and handling were high on my list. Some arbitrary but definable benchmarks were used to help screen the list. A PHRF rating under 100 is indicative of a sporty boat, while it is a racing rating it is amazing how many cruising boats have a rating you can look at. The ability to realistically make 200 mile days, or 8.3 knot average, was a factor not because short crossing times were important but because fun sailing was important. Ability to make tight turns and back well is important because we keep our boat at a dock and periodically visit marinas. Ability to steer well in heavy seas was important. Our 43 ft cruising boat meets all those requirements. We sail at or above half of wind speed in winds from 6 to 15 knots (yes, we easily make three knots on all points of sail in a six-knot breeze). We have sailed at wind speed on numerous occasions (8 knots of water speed in eight knots of true wind). We have made hundred plus mile passages at average speeds that would make a 200-mi day.

With our obvious focus on performance, maneuverability, and handling, I don't think any full keel boat would come close to competing. None percolated to the top in our search. And I suspect that those factors are high in many buyers decision process.

I think it is very likely that the dearth of modern full keel boats is driven by many factors, but that construction cost savings are very low on the list.

[Bowdrie]

I'll stand by what I said about costs.
The hardware/fittings/engines/rigs, (even the door hinges,) are not that big of a difference among boats of the same general size.
But when company A builds a 13 ton 40 foot boat with 5 tons of lead and company B builds a 40 footer that's 4 tons lighter with an iron keel that means a LOT of fiberglass/resin and lead can be saved and that IS a lot of money.
And the labor to actually "do the work" of using more weight of product is increased in the heavier boat.
The heavier boat more likely has a bigger engine that drives a prop thru a shaft log, lots of time/labor to get all that right.
The light boats engine may well be a Saildrive that's basically dropped in a hole with a gasket, little cost/little labor.
Regarding some previous posts;
In no way can a high-tech racing boat be compared to the average "cruising" boat for costs, a metal worker I knew charged $700 for a pair of custom Titanium hinges for a race boat, that was years ago, today those hinges would be a couple of grand, if not more.
In that respect, (just like aircraft,) light weight does cost lots of money.
The heavier boats also are much more likely to use more wood and skilled carpenters which again drive the costs.
There is no way out, weight in a cruising boat costs money.

[Ixium]

Shouldn’t the most important part be encapsulated vs bolted on keel?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Ixium

Shouldn’t the most important part be encapsulated vs bolted on keel?

Not necessarily. Either type can be built well or poorly. If built poorly each has different potential issues, but both have weak points if they're not built well.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Ixium

Shouldn’t the most important part be encapsulated vs bolted on keel?

If you look at the underwater profile of, (for example,) an early Swan 43, it's a S&S design and you'll see that it has a deep wineglass shaped hull with an external bolted on lead keel that has quite a slope to it.
If you hit a rock you might gouge up the lead but you'll not bust loose the keel to hull joint nor fracture the hull itself.
An encapsulated ballast can be very good if the ballast is lead and cast in a shape that just leaves a little room that can be filled with something like lead shot mixed with resin, or even lead shot mixed with cement.
Some boats, (more than we might think,) had stuff like "boiler-punchings" or odd pieces of ferrous metals poured into the cavity, some resin poured in that was supposed to kind of "lock" the punchings together in a mass, and then some glasswork to cover it all up.
If that kind of encapsulated keel gets water in it the rust starts growing.
Before I bought a boat with encapsulated ballast, I would make sure of what the ballast material was, and if it was large cast pieces, how it was secured and what was used to fill-up the gaps.
Not trying to bad mouth encapsulated ballast at all, many good boats used some form of it, but during its "heyday", as it were, there was a lot of playing around, so to speak, companies "fiddled" with things.
American built boats were not immune, Tiawan boats were less immune.
Not too long ago a friend of mine drilled a hole down low in the hull of his boat and a couple of gallons of water came out.
The ballast was lead, so no rust. After a couple of days he sealed the hole.
It turned out that the bolts for the bottom rudder gudgeon had been leaking.
But that fitting and bolts had been underwater for over 45 years.
It's all Ok now and good for another 45 years or so.

[HankOnthewater]

I think I agree with the most of above posts. When selecting a boat for cruising do not start with the keel/rudder configuration. Start of the type of boat and what you would like to do with it, and how and where you plan to use it.
If you sail relatively close to shire in areas with a lots of craypots (lobster), a deep narrow fin keel might not the best choice. Same if you want to anchor close to shore, or want to cross bars into small rivers or estuarine systems, again a deep fin keel may not for you.
Your choice for a cruising boat is more likely determined by questions:
- What is the budget for purchase and maintenance? This will give a wide range of brands and models
- How many people on board permanently?
- How often having guests on board and how many
- What do I like to take: fishing gear, diving gear, aquatic toys, tools, equipment
- How long do I plan to be away from re-stocking supplies? The longer period this is, the more storage space is needed
- Where do I mainly sail, and how remote? The more remote you are, the more stuff you need to take, the more more self-reliant you need to be, ie spares, also in construction of boat and quality of equipment
- The above will dictate to a large degree how much water, fuel, spares you need to take
o Hmmm, I always have a chuckle with ads of cruising boats for sale, with on deck a half a dozen jerrycans of fuel
- How comfortable would I like to be, and how many conveniences do I need? Ie
o Some would say two heads are needed, but is one head enough?
o Do I need microwave and washing machine?
o Do I really need a 4-burner stove/oven, or are 2 burners enough?
o Do I need a QS bed that can be accessed form 3 sides, or a double size bed enough?
- Do I want a simple boat with simple systems? …. Or……
o Do I need electric winches
o Do I need a bow thruster?
o Do I need hydraulics?
o Do I need electric everything?
o Do I need solarpanels and wind generator? And how much of that?
o Do I need a watermaker
o Do I need a genset?
o Do I need a large lithium battery system?
- How big a dinghy do I need or want to carry? If you never anchor out, visit marinas, then not much deck space or davits need to be allocated for this.
- What size of boat is needed, but a better question is about volume needed, as older designs have less volume than newer boats of the same length
o Note, larger boats offer more space, are mostly more comfortable, and paradoxally easier to sail, more forgiving
o Larger boats cost more money in docking, insurance, gear replacement, maintenance
- Aft cockpit or centre cockpit? Flush deck?
- What sailing abilities are required
o Do I want 200 Nm averages per day? This will call for a fairly well designed boat, likely post eighties and/or a larger boat
o Or I am happy with 150 Nm per day? Note that averages are often much smaller than this for many boats
o Do I need good light weather performance? This would then likely exclude boats with long keels, and heavy boats with small ratio of sail area over displacement
- Then one look at rigs (sloop, cutter, ketch, schooner, freestanding masts etc.)
o Although furling headsails are nearly a given, but then do I need a furling main? If so, in mast or on boom?
- What sailing abilities are required
- Sail and boat handling , how easy does that need to be?
- And then….. what boats do I like, or should this the first question?

El Pinguino offered good advice: “everything in moderation”.
Note that many requirements will be mutually exclusive, ie if you want a small boat, then there is limited storage space, or centre cockpit may not be (aesthetically) possible. And every convenience you add there is a $$$$ penalty.

Disclaimer, this list of question is far from complete, and was written over breakfast and 2 coffees

Oh, I see that Sailingharry has a Saga 43, very nice. From the boats I have seen and been on, the best compromise between, space, sailing abilities and beauty. Just an opinion. A few years ago, I contemplated to buy one, but I hesitated too long and it was sold.

[Fore and Aft]

How about lift keel?
Hank has the right idea. Lots of people answer yes to most of those questions, which explains the massive increase in catamaran ownership.
Cheers
https://chrismorejohn.blogspot.com/2...s-details.html

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

Oh, I see that Sailingharry has a Saga 43, very nice. From the boats I have seen and been on, the best compromise between, space, sailing abilities and beauty. Just an opinion. A few years ago, I contemplated to buy one, but I hesitated too long and it was sold.

Thanks. We are pretty happy with it. If we'd done better with lottery tickets we'd have an Outbound -- but we aren't doing too shabby. Bob Perry can draw a nice boat!

[Hasbeen]

I once owned a beautiful "cruising" boat, 36Ft LOA. Long bow spit, clipper bow graceful shear, shallow draft, long straight keel,& a large buoyant counter stern. It was the picture of the perfect cruising boat of the 60s.


It was a nice accommodation plan, but a bl00dy awful sailing boat. The buoyant clipper bow meant it hobby horsed into any short sea, even a chop on the harbor. In a following sea the buoyant counter stern would sink the fine underwater shape of the clipper bow, which would then shear off either side of course & try to broach. It was a nightmare off shore.


I then bought a small 40Ft racing. It was pretty much like an 8 meter racing boat. See my album for some photos out of the water. It had a full underwater shape forward, & a fine counter. The heavily cut away forefoot short keel, with a keel hung rudder gave quick maneuverability but the full entry made her gentle running in big seas. She surfed beautifully under self steering.



I built a windvane system, using a 2 Sq Ft semi balanced independent rudder in a bumpkin, This steered me for 51,000 miles of the 53,000 miles I logged in her.


I once averaged 15 knots for 153 miles running down the Oz east coast, sitting in the companionway reading. That would have had some current assistance. I also averaged 7.6 knots for the 1100 NM trip from Honoria Solomon Islands to Cairns Oz. under just a 146 Sq Ft jib for 5 of the 6 days, self steering all the way.


Not everyone can be lucky enough to find A Morgan Giles designed boat, but don't be scared of short keels. It is the full hull shape that must be balanced to give directional stability. Keels are for righting moment, & something to sit on when on the hard.

[JPA Cate]

fwiw,

Jim and I have, between his/our last 3 boats, over 175,000 sea miles. All three have had non-extreme fin keels, and skeg hung rudders.

Imo, if you want a cutter with those qualities, go for it. I think in line spreaders are better for cruising boats than rigs with swept back spreaders, like we have on this boat. But the other side of that is that the PO of our present boat had a mast in the water knockdown during a gale, and did NOT lose the rig, in the Aleutians. Having double lowers is also a hedge against complete loss of rig.

Come up with a list of what you require, and trust your judgement. Try and find as many boats fit you, and then see which is in the best condition, and choose. Don't wait too long.

Ann

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Ixium

Shouldn’t the most important part be encapsulated vs bolted on keel?

Simple answer: No, that is far from the most important factor.

Jim

[CarlF]

As an older singlehander, I would focus on ease of sail handling and safety in all weather more than keel shape

For that I would pick a ketch

The smaller sails on a ketch plus the ability to sail jib and jigger makes everything easier. Winch loads are smaller. Sails are smaller and lighter. Mast height is lower.

The ketch also allows setting a mizzen staysail. Asymetrical spinnakers or spinakers are not a good choice for an older single hander.

I'd look at a Shannon 38. They come with an encapsulated full keel and incredibly strong skeg mounted rudder. Built like a brick outhouse.

Many have circumnavigated multiple times.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/197...ketch-9034356/