Best keel type for offshore trip

[Tortuga's Lie]

Originally Posted by Happ

If you are going to be in areas of coral the grounding a full keel has a better chance of minimal damage then a fin.

While this is mostly true, a well built fin that has a substantial horizontal length will be much better at a hard grounding and still much quicker than a full keel 9 out of ten times, so if you want a quicker passage.............

[rslifkin]

For the log reason, I've seen cases of fin keel / skeg rudder boats with a small bar attached between the bottom of the keel and the bottom of the skeg. The idea being that any logs or things rolling along the bottom of the keel are less likely to pop up in between the keel and skeg.

As far as flat bottomed hulls and pounding / slamming, there are plenty of well shaped, comfortable riding hulls out there with fin keels. Not all fin keels are the modern Euro style of a fairly flat hull with the keel bolted right to it with no stub. In my mind, those are a poor design, but there are lots of better designed fin keels out there (both bolted onto a proper skeg as well as encapsulated fins).

[Tortuga's Lie]

Originally Posted by Greg K

On the PNW coast the biggest danger to your boat will be logs, especially if you're single handing and can't keep a constant watch. An encapsulated traditional full keel with attached rudder and a cutaway forefoot with simply ride up on a floating log and either spit it out the rear end or roll over to her side and fall off it without causing any damage to the keel, rudder or prop. That is the most compelling reason for going with a fell keel in that cruising area.


Back in the 90's I sailed an Alberg 30 out of Vancouver and hitting floating logs was a regular occurrence. Never any serious problem.


Repairing floating log damaged fin-keeler's used to be, and probably continues to be, the bread and butter of PNW boatyards.

Reminds me of my last trip through the Great Dismal Swamp canal, we must have hit 5 submerged logs, a couple quite hard but no damage at all, thankfully. They're impossible to spot since the tannins in the water turn it so black you can't see past an inch.

[Andrew Lippman]

Swans and X-Yachts have steel beams that hold the keel and rig. They don't lose the keel in a grounding. A relative with an Island Packet hit a rock that pierced the encapsulation and required a week on land with a drier to prep for the repair. Bavaria had some trouble with losing keels a few years ago. Design and quality are a big part of the equation.

At sea, there is nothing more comforting than a deep keel with a bulb 9' below the boat, but that's less good in harbors and marinas. There are plenty of designs that are less extreme.

One thing is for sure: your arms will thank you for a nice balanced rudder.

[drdoyle]

Heavy, fat and solid full keel for me. Will load more supplies than a fin keel skimmer. Samuel Moris Bristol Channel Cutter or a Fisher MS (enclosed pilot house) . Maybe a Tayana.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Tortuga's Lie

While this is mostly true, a well built fin that has a substantial horizontal length will be much better at a hard grounding and still much quicker than a full keel 9 out of ten times, so if you want a quicker passage.............

A Fin Keel is absolutely much faster! I was sailing a fin keeled boat that had been left on a sea wall during a storm. The keel spent the night bouncing off of a large root. The owner had extra glass added to cover the crack. The extra glass broke in 35 knots and we started taking on water. We were able to get to port. This time the proper repair was made by grinding out the crack, pressing the hulls together (2 piece hull) and securing the hulls together with Kevlar. The boat was fast and stronger than when new.

That experience makes me partial to Full Keels. As in every boat design there are trade offs. If I wanted a fast boat that could go in shallow water I’d get a trimaran. Go twice the speed of a monohull. The trade off is the interiors are rather sparse and they do they pound. For what its worth the new monohulls are much faster then ones even 10 years ago. The interiors now are the cheapest veneer you can get.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by drdoyle

Heavy, fat and solid full keel for me. Will load more supplies than a fin keel skimmer. Samuel Moris Bristol Channel Cutter or a Fisher MS (enclosed pilot house) . Maybe a Tayana.

Load carrying ability has nothing to do with fin or long keel and everything to do with waterplane area and by extension tonnes per centimetre immersion.

[Curmugeon]

How comfortable do you want to be. Check out the Brewer Comfort Ratio.
I sailed across the Pacific and Indian Oceans (twice) on a Brewer Designed 36 footer with a Full Keel, Skeg Hung rudder and the Brewer Bite. We had the odd soft grounding and were able to haul in fishing boat yards (no need for a Crane or Travel Lift). My Fin Keeled travel mates had a rougher passage and less access to yards for repair.
One of my travel mates decided on a fin keel because the boat could go faster so he could outrun storms. You can guess how that worked out.

[Tortuga's Lie]

Originally Posted by drdoyle

Heavy, fat and solid full keel for me. Will load more supplies than a fin keel skimmer. Samuel Moris Bristol Channel Cutter or a Fisher MS (enclosed pilot house) . Maybe a Tayana.

We were in a Hospice benefit race this past weekend and there was a Hans Christian 43 in it, pretty boat for sure, but I could have sworn they were anchored with all the boats passing it by But the Hans is not built to race, cross oceans safe and slow, but not race.

[sailorladd]

For performance, comfort and peace of mind, look into a cutaway forefoot (full internal ballasted keel) with a cutaway forefoot ending under the mast position... The rudder is bolted and glassed onto the trailing edge of this keel... I built my boat and have had her in the water since 1978, sailed around the world, and she is still going strong...

[lifeofreilly57]

I've owned boats with pretty much all the options you've described. In my home waters (New England) I pretty much sailed racer/Cruiser models with a fin keel and spade rudder because it seems I'm always sailing upwind here.
I've also had full keel, modified fin and some in between.
Our current boat has an encapsulated modified fin keel, sort of halfway between a full and fin keel, with a skeg hung rudder. It works well with our monitor windvane but needed a larger autopilot ram when we bought it. I can also careen this vessel with no problem, don't ask me how I know.
It points to windward fairly well, but not like a fin keel/spade rudder boat. The rig is a cutter rig with a detachable inner forestay, this allows easier tacking upwind but more sail area on a beam reach, it also allows me to pull in the head sail and better centralize the sail plan in big wind. The boat is happiest on beam reaches, which it was really designed for but is fairly good upwind too.
Backing with a skeg hung rudder is not as handy as a spade rudder, but can be done, you just need plenty of room to get her going in reverse before it's maneuverable. In other words, if backing into a dock, start reversing in the channel before entering the fairway to have good steering response.
In our Caribbean cruising and offshore sailing it's been a very comfortable and seaworthy setup and has a surprising turn of speed off the wind for a twenty ton boat. Nine knots hull speed in 17 knots of wind on the beam for sustained periods, but it's rare to get perfect conditions, good in big seas and decent in average winds. One thing I would do when we go cruising again is get an asymetrical spinnaker to help in light winds.,
Any boat is a compromise, it just depends on what you need.

[merrydolphin]

OK. Im going to go another direction here. I have owned and extensively cruised most common keel types. An S & S fin/skeg, a classic Alberg 35 full keel, a perfect middle of the road, Kelly Peterson longer fin and large skeg with cut out for prop and nearly 7’ draft. But the boat that I by far liked best, I came very close to not buying because is was so unusual. A Cal ll-46. It had a long fin, nearly a full keel and a large robust SPADE rudder! What?

I am sooooo glad that I bought it. What an incredible cruiser. MANY have circumnavigated and for good reason. I won’t go into the incredible layout, and stay on subject. I tracked very well, it maneuvered better than the Peterson 44 or the Alberg 35. But was so well behaved at sea that the silly little Ray marine wheel pilot that I bought for a back up only to be used in calm water while motoring would steer her downwind in a gale! The pilot was for smaller boats less that half the size of the Cal at over 35K#. The boat was just that well behaved. Best ever. To boot, it motored like a trawler and sailed near 200 mile days.

So you just never know.

[Indolent58]

TL;DR but yes, your offshore boat should definitely have a keel.

[kiwi_colin]

I have a 45 foot steel yacht and sail out of the windiest city in the world (Wellington NZ), personally, I would not have anything that will not hove to easily and completely. It has been my experience (45 years of sailing every sort of yacht there is) that fin keels and spade rudders are not that great at hoving to when the wind and waves are challenging. We regularly cross the cook strait (the roughest daily navigatable strait in the world) and I have pushed my yacht to sail in 50kts and 4 metre swells regularly, it has a 3/4 keel and a huge barn door rudder attached to the keel, it handles this well and always behaves. When the crew gets sick of the pounding of beating up into horrible weather she also hoves to well and just sits there giving everyone a rest and time to get stuff sorted before we resume the trip. I did have a Farr before this yacht that was fast pointed well and had a fin keel and a spade rudder...it was faster but nowhere near as comfortable or reassuring as my current yacht...and she definitely did not hove to well.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by massnspace

Hello All

I have been sailing for 4 decades. Mostly coastal saltwater on both coasts. Boats from 27 to 43 feet. Older boats but always tried to put safety first.

I am now seriously considering buying a boat to do longer coastal and offshore trips. Around Vancouver Island first. To Alaska and back. And then down the coast to Cabo and hopefully through the canal back up to the east coast. These trips will be mostly solo, but my wife will visit from time to time.

I am certain I want a well-built boat with a cutter rig, or at the very least an inner forestay to manage the sail plan. I am certain I will be using a windvane for steering as often as I can.

I am in relatively good health, but as I get older I want a boat that is pretty easy to handle.

My question: What type of keel would be best for this adventure? I am not keen on a deep fin and deep rudder. Not going to be racing and worried about tracking and/or damage or fouling such deep appendages. I am also not keen on a full keel as I want to go upwind. So thinking a shallower fin with skeg-hung rudder is best. But is it? Is it better to just buy a full-keel, heavy boat to be more comfortable when the going gets rough? Do windvanes work better with a certain type of keel?

Thank you for your time in helping me with this question.

David
Seattle

I agree that a sailboat is a sum of its parts...its overall design. There is an area between full keel and fin keel, the long fin.

My Tayana Vancouver 42 is a true cutter rig (mast is further aft than a sloop would be), has the long fin, and skeg. With a Monitor windvane I've sailed her solo across the Gulf of Mexico, Alaska (return solo), and Hawaii round trip with crew. On the Hawaii trip we hove-to over and on the return and she did so very well. She is a very comfortable boat in the worst of conditions. In all the conditions encountered, I never felt concerned about the boat's capability.

Before putting your money down do yourself a favor and compare the significant ratios of the boats you are considering for your expected use and waters...learn what you are buying, its COMFORT, and CAPSIZE ratios. I spent five years researching sailboats and built a database of over 3,000 boats in available rig configurations, then sorted for my priorities...I learned a lot. You can use Sail Calculator Pro or sailboatdata.com to make your research easier.

Good Luck.