Best keel type for offshore trip

[massnspace]

Hello All

I have been sailing for 4 decades. Mostly coastal saltwater on both coasts. Boats from 27 to 43 feet. Older boats but always tried to put safety first.

I am now seriously considering buying a boat to do longer coastal and offshore trips. Around Vancouver Island first. To Alaska and back. And then down the coast to Cabo and hopefully through the canal back up to the east coast. These trips will be mostly solo, but my wife will visit from time to time.

I am certain I want a well-built boat with a cutter rig, or at the very least an inner forestay to manage the sail plan. I am certain I will be using a windvane for steering as often as I can.

I am in relatively good health, but as I get older I want a boat that is pretty easy to handle.

My question: What type of keel would be best for this adventure? I am not keen on a deep fin and deep rudder. Not going to be racing and worried about tracking and/or damage or fouling such deep appendages. I am also not keen on a full keel as I want to go upwind. So thinking a shallower fin with skeg-hung rudder is best. But is it? Is it better to just buy a full-keel, heavy boat to be more comfortable when the going gets rough? Do windvanes work better with a certain type of keel?

Thank you for your time in helping me with this question.

David
Seattle

[cal40john]

You're going to get rabid die hard fan opinions in all directions. Sounds like you've already chosen the moderate answer.

[S/V Illusion]

Having had boats with full keel, fin keel and wing keel, it makes little difference offshore. Some faster, some point higher, some track better. Pick one.

[gonesail]

keel shape usually contributes to tracking ability. and tracking is what you want for passages offshore. assume you are thinking monohull here.

[psk125]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind. What you need are boat suggestions that track well and work with windvane steering. Don't think Leo Sampson would sell you Tally Ho, but perhaps something like that would be good. Windvanes are difficult to mount on double-enders, so you'll want something with a transom. The heavy displacements of full-keel boats may make moving in the light air typical of the Alaskan summer very slow and frustrating. Make sure you have a hefty engine and enjoy using it. My brother took his J/30 - an agile and lightweight boat - from Seattle to Juneau and ended up powering most of the way because the wind was too light to keep him moving.

[Bowdrie]

Designs by Ted Brewer and Robert Perry, (two designers that come easily to mind, and there are others,) have achieved a "happy medium" of good sailing ability and maneuvering under power while still having the displacement necessary to carry tons of assorted "necessities".
A notch or so higher in performance would be the late '60s to middle '70s Swans that were from the S&S design board.
A longish/swept back fin with a skeg hung rudder, they go to weather like they're on rails, but many sailors might think the interiors somewhat "smallish" for their length.
Two things that I always think about when not off soundings; how deep is the water and how many crab pots are around me.
Boats with a skinny airplane wing for a keel and an unsupported helicopter blade for a rudder with a "Saildrive" sticking out between them do not contribute to my peace of mind while inshore, others may feel differently, that's ok.

[dlj]

I'm currently sailing a fin keel, partial skeg hung rudder boat offshore. I draw just under 6 feet. I can't imagine that a full keel boat would have given me any advantages - I've skirted two hurricanes and some other feisty weather and the boat has handled it beautifully.

I think the best advice is when you are looking, find the boat with the best setup and don't worry about the keel type. If you find a full keel boat that is beautifully laid out, go for it. If you find a fin keel with skeg hung rudder that is beautifully laid out, go for it....

In short - get the best condition boat you can find at the time within your budget.

dj

[sailingharry]

I'm not sure I understand what tracking is and is it a plus or a minus. Having grown up on a full keel, I can tell you they don't turn worth a damn. I guess that means that they go straight. I currently own a fin keel with a fully separate spade rudder. It turns on a dime, making it easy to maneuver and steer in big seas. It also makes it super easy for the autopilot to control the boat, I have hit 16 knots surfing down 8-foot seas in winds gusting to 40 while I simply sat there and let the autopilot drive.

As an aside, I think any keel hung or skeg hung rudder is likely to be unbalanced - all of the surface area is aft of the pivot point. Spade rudders, and to some degree partial skeg rudders, are semi balanced with significant rudder area forward of the pivot point. This dramatically reduces steering force required by the helmsman or self steering equipment.

[wholybee]

I find it interesting that so many people argue in favor of a full keel, and completely ignore or think the expertise of engineers and naval architects is wrong. Almost every sailboat that crosses an ocean is fin keel, space rudder. And a new fin keel/spade rudder boat (say, newer than 2015) will always be faster and more comfortable than a full keel boat from the 1980's earlier. There is no contest, yet purists will still argue and turn it into a debate.

I have a Ted Brewer design with a big fin and skeg. If not for the fact that I can't afford to, I would happily trade it for a modern boat.

Having said that, your budget is going to dictate how new or old of a boat you buy. That will probably affect the keel type. And whatever age boat you buy, some will be good offshore boats, and some will not.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Almost every sailboat that crosses an ocean is fin keel, space rudder.

The two crossings I did would be the exception then.

[Scorpius]

There are lots and lots of rocks on the BC and Alaska coast. Lots of people hit them. If you go aground with a fin keel you are in trouble. It's extremely hard to balance the boat and keep it upright in our big tides. In that regard a full keel gives some piece of mind as it's easier to keep the boat upright when aground.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I find it interesting that so many people argue in favor of a full keel, and completely ignore or think the expertise of engineers and naval architects is wrong. Almost every sailboat that crosses an ocean is fin keel, space rudder. And a new fin keel/spade rudder boat (say, newer than 2015) will always be faster and more comfortable than a full keel boat from the 1980's earlier. There is no contest, yet purists will still argue and turn it into a debate.

In large part the "expertise" of engineers/architects is paid for by companies that, (quite rightly,) want to make a lot of money.
They have to sell a lot of boats at a high enough margin to cover the exponential increase in the property/buildings/wages/materials.
All the engines/stoves/pumps/spars/winches/toilets, ad infinitum, cost what they do.
The biggest way to save money is to make the basic fiberglass structure lighter and require less labor.
A shallow lightweight arc-bottom hull with a bolted-on fin of cast iron is far easier and cheaper to build than a deep hulled boat that needs enough thickness and strength, (weight,) to carry tons of expensive lead in an encapsulated or bolted on keel without having to rely on some egg-crate grill to hopefully support it.
There was a post on another thread where the poster said his hull was ~6mm thick.
Six millimeters? Good grief, that's about the thickness I've used to lay-up some fiberglass ice boxes.
Yes, the engineers and architects do what they have to do to fill the requirements given to them, mores the pity.
There are thousands of old thick hulled/solid glass boats out there that are 50 years old and still taking people around the world or various parts of it, without their owners filling-up this website with endless posts about saturated cores or decks/leaky keel bolts/de-laminations/corroded keels/ cracked glass/cheap aluminum parts/bent rudder stocks/bulkheads squeaking, or miserable compound curved plastic "picture windows' that are almost impossible to replace, this list could be endless.
Perhaps some of the engineers/architects might go back and read Skenes and Kretschmer and Rousmaniere.
Comfort?
The big things that add comfort are weight and a hull shape that gives an easy motion.
Another, perhaps less understood, is having enough hull depth that brings the occupant deeper and closer to the axis of roll/pitch, where you more-or-less "tilt in place" rather than the feeling of being at the end of an upside-down pendulum, (ie, thrown around).

[oregonian]

Wholybee said “almost every boat that crosses the ocean is a fin keel spade rudder”. Lake Superior said “ the two crossings I did would be the exceptions then”. Oregonian says “ 28 crossings that I did, on multiple boats, would also be exceptions.” 4 boats I crossed in would not be exceptions.

[GWB]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I find it interesting that so many people argue in favor of a full keel, and completely ignore or think the expertise of engineers and naval architects is wrong. Almost every sailboat that crosses an ocean is fin keel, space rudder. And a new fin keel/spade rudder boat (say, newer than 2015) will always be faster and more comfortable than a full keel boat from the 1980's earlier. There is no contest, yet purists will still argue and turn it into a debate.

I have a Ted Brewer design with a big fin and skeg. If not for the fact that I can't afford to, I would happily trade it for a modern boat.

Having said that, your budget is going to dictate how new or old of a boat you buy. That will probably affect the keel type. And whatever age boat you buy, some will be good offshore boats, and some will not.

My full keel boat has taken good care of me through 3 Hawaii “there and back trips” from the west coast. It is small at 32 foot but behaves like a much bigger boat because of its weight. It is 50 years old, safe and comfortable. The last trip to Hawaii took 14 days. That is not slow.

Your statements show your inexperience/ignorance sorry to say.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by oregonian

Wholybee said “almost every boat that crosses the ocean is a fin keel spade rudder”. Lake Superior said “ the two crossings I did would be the exceptions then”. Oregonian says “ 28 crossings that I did, on multiple boats, would also be exceptions.”

I circumnavigated and have a lot of crossings too. Maybe instead of hearsay or one person's opinion, someone can tally and count them? I am willing to be proven wrong. Quick glance, I do see a number of fin and skeg. But not too many full keel.

https://www.pacificpuddlejump.com/fleet.html
https://pacificposse.com/22-vessels
https://www.worldcruising.com/world_...ntentries.aspx


Any older boat that was built to a racing rule sacrificed performance and comfort for a rating advantage. Long overhangs, for example. Good for a rating, but bad for comfort and performance.

Comments about engineers and thin fiberglass etc. Maybe that applies to cheaper production boats like Beneteaus and Jeanneaus (of which many cross oceans every year), but high end expensive boats are fin keel/spade rudder also.

Better laminating techniques, calculating where the stresses are, and understanding that some flex can result in a stronger structure than one that is rigid, can result in a thin and light structure that is just as strong or stronger than one that is heavy with too much resin.

The only real valid argument for a skeg instead of a spade is if you think you might run aground on rocks. Even in that case, Bob Perry (who has probably had more of his boats cross oceans than any other designer) argues that a skeg is difficult to engineer and build, and usually the rudder holds the skeg on the boat. I know that on my boat that is the case, having had the rudder off while on the hard, the skeg is flimsy. And that a spade rudder would be just as strong.

Anyway, I feel that in general newer designs will perform better than older designs. Hull shapes have evolved with better understanding and engineering of how a boat sails. Racing rules aren't a big influence in current cruising boat designs. But, always a lemon in there someplace. Build quality is going to be related to price point and manufacture. You really can't make a broad statement that older boats are built better. Of course, and older boat is going to need a whole lot more maintenance and refit to be ready for a crossing.