big performance cruising cat capsizes

[smj]

Originally Posted by weavis

He is thinking " I should have bought a Lagoon....."

[emoji23]I’m sure that thought never crossed his mind, and probably never will.

[Kentm]

I bet that’s what his wife thinks. [emoji15]

[Factor]

My god that is ugly, looks like someone literally found a doghouse for the saloon, but back on point - well what is your point Polux? That if you oversail a boat crap happens, if so I agree.

Foiling Rudders, Curved daggerboards and rotating rig, more racer than cruiser.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Almost any boat raced can be capzised if pushed beyond a certain limit.

I'm pretty sure if you sail Fujin conservative and responsibly in cruising mode she is pretty seaworthy and save.
If you race you are sometimes making a conscious decision to push past a limit, and that can go wrong.
Nothing wrong with that if you are aware of your decisions.

Capsizing is not always and automatically a design or build flaw.
Neither is it automatically a factor to quantify sea worthiness.
Even on designs pushing the envelope.

Yes of course you are right but the stability of a condo cat is very different fro the one of a performance cruising cat. it has all to do with the weight since the beam for cats with about the same length is not very different.

As the pictures show it is not very dificult to fly a hull on a performance cat if one pushes the boat but it is very dificult on a condo cat even if one is pushing the boat.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

My god that is ugly, looks like someone literally found a doghouse for the saloon, but back on point - well what is your point Polux? That if you oversail a boat crap happens, if so I agree.

Foiling Rudders, Curved daggerboards and rotating rig, more racer than cruiser.

I am not making any point except that if one really pushes a performance cruising cat **** can happen.

But I agree that most of the times sailors are to blame. Well, they were racing, pushing the boat and somebody messed up or they got a bigger gust that they could not control.

It happens and it is not the first time and it will not be the last.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

lets face it, americans really do not know about cats. Too many capsizes and failed projects.



My advice : stick with monohulls.

Really??!?! [emoji849]

[contrail]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

lets face it, americans really do not know about cats. Too many capsizes and failed projects.

My advice : stick with monohulls.

Really?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes of course you are right but the stability of a condo cat is very different fro the one of a performance cruising cat. it has all to do with the weight since the beam for cats with about the same length is not very different..

Not sure where this furphy originated. I assume all designers seek to have balanced weight distribution. If you have a seesaw with nothing on each end it is easy to move put 100 kilo on each end, still easy, put 100 kilo on one end only harder to move one way not so hard the other.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Kentm

I bet that’s what his wife thinks. [emoji15]

Why? How do you know that she (if she, or perhaps he, even exists) doesn’t love to race as much as the guy?

What is it with this forum and the repeated sexism that women are driving the decisions for square-edged condomarans? Doesn’t it take two to tango? And surely there are couples where the woman would prefer to sail more and have a smaller salon?

And the way to sail conservatively on a performance catamaran? Reef earlier. The only time IMO where a performance catamaran is less safe is in extreme conditions, and then only if there isn’t a way to slow down the more easily driven hulls, e.g. a JSD.

Catamarans and trimarans capsizing while racing is not news and doesn’t have anything to do with cruising.

[Kentm]

I needed the sarcasm font. I agree with you, it always seems to go the same way. I get it, I was joking (not very well science I’m explaining) every one makes their own choices for their own reasons.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

Not sure where this furphy originated. I assume all designers seek to have balanced weight distribution. If you have a seesaw with nothing on each end it is easy to move put 100 kilo on each end, still easy, put 100 kilo on one end only harder to move one way not so hard the other.

Stability for a catamaran is approximately given by:

Displacement*1/2(C-C Beam)

What I wanted to say is that being the beam, for a given length, about the same on condo cats and performance cats the difference in weight between a condo cat and a performance cat makes all the difference in what regards a superior stability.

Even some cat owners, that should know better, seem not to know that a 45ft performance cat has much less stability than a 45ft condo cat simply because it has the same beam and in some cases has half the weight and in that case that means half the stability.

That lesser stability is aggravated by the fact the performance cats having a bigger SA/D, meaning more sail proportionally to the weight.

That's because all that that we can see plenty photos of performance cruising cats flying a hull when I never saw a single one of a condo cat flying a hull.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Stability for a catamaran is approximately given by:

Displacement*1/2(C-C Beam) .

Who told you that. Displacement-Beam-Sail Area is what you meant to say.

Your equation would suggest that a boat that weighs 10 tonne and has a HC to HC beam of 6 metres and has 10sq metres of sail is exactly as stable as a cat that weighs 10 tonne and has a HC to HC beam of 6 metres and has 100sq metres of sail. It is the sail area that acts as the lever. And in any event, racing cats rarely capsize, they invariably pitchpole. Some ugly outcome but the dynamics are different and need to be considered and managed differently. Maybe you should sail a few to gain some insight.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Polux

*Static* Stability for a catamaran is approximately given by:

Displacement*1/2(C-C Beam)

What I wanted to say is that being the beam, for a given length, about the same on condo cats and performance cats the difference in weight between a condo cat and a performance cat makes all the difference in what regards a superior *Static* stability.

Even some cat owners, that should know better, seem not to know that a 45ft performance cat has much less *Static* stability than a 45ft condo cat simply because it has the same beam and in some cases has half the weight and in that case that means half the *Static* stability.

That lesser *Static* stability is aggravated by the fact the performance cats having a bigger SA/D, meaning more sail proportionally to the weight.

That's because all that that we can see plenty photos of performance cruising cats flying a hull when I never saw a single one of a condo cat flying a hull.

Sigh, still conflating the concepts of static and dynamic stability and also not understanding that the shape of the righting moment curve is just as important as the height and f the curve.

In the first place, static stability only defines the height of the righting moment curve. Ignoring everything else, higher is better and your example makes sense only when ignoring all the other factors.

The shape of the righting moment curve describes the behaviour at higher amounts of heel. Typically a performance catamaran will have a lower maximum righting moment but a much wider range of positive righting moment (partly due to the higher SA/D). Hence, the performance catamaran can sail with a raised hull with a much lower decrease in righting moment than the heavier condo cat.

So at anchor a condo cat may withstand a higher gust from the side, but at sea while sailing the performance cat may handle higher wind loads.

And all this still ignores the dynamic stability factors, which favour performance cats. Taken to extreme, consider the cats and tris setting records while flying hulls around the world.

[SV.OHANA]

I raced the Carib 600 in 2016. This happened off Saba. We experienced a severe williwaw off Saba that knocked our Swan flat. This may have been a contributing factor to this capsize event. Will wait to hear the full report.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Really??!?! [emoji849]

trust me. you will thank me later.