Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by OutOfControl

Well if the previous post to yours is any indication, it would total 110,500. If you include I'am and I've that total would increase to 132,600. Of course, this does not include any post after #5525.

So tell US, please -- do YOU think YOUR post that YOU just made improved the tone of the thread, or contributed to the understanding of the COLREGS, or eased the tension in any way? What positive contribution did YOUR post just make?

Sometimes what ONE posts generates more heat than light ...

[OutOfControl]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

So tell US, please -- do YOU think YOUR post that YOU just made improved the tone of the thread, or contributed to the understanding of the COLREGS, or eased the tension in any way? What positive contribution did YOUR post just make?

Sometimes what ONE posts generates more heat than light ...

Susan, does this mean I won't be allowed in your new playground.

"Before I set the forum up, I'd like to hear from the people who read this blog regarding topics you'd like to see there. The posting policy will be the same as it is here: it's OK to be new. It's OK to offer an opinion that is different than the one you just read ... as long as you are courteous about it. The forum will be a place where participants use the same level of respect and courtesy that you would give to someone in real life, in a face-to-face discussion."

[Lodesman]

A little advice...

[estarzinger]

I was giving a seminar at the Maritime Institute today (a professional mariner training campus in Baltimore) and at lunch sat next to a senior ship captain who gave navigation and colreg seminars. I asked him about "impede" in TSS.

His reaction was threefold:

1. The (ship mariners) don't pay much attention to the "impede" clause. They focus on the steering rules.

2. That said, his opinion was that if the ship had to maneuver (at all) to avoid us in a TSS, that we had 'impeded".

3. Their strong preference was that we try to avoid getting in their way, but more importantly that we act in a stable an predictable way (course and speed) and they will then plan out a small maneuver to avoid us if necessary.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I was giving a seminar at the Maritime Institute today (a professional mariner training campus in Baltimore) and at lunch sat next to a senior ship captain who gave navigation and colreg seminars. I asked him about "impede" in TSS.

His reaction was threefold:

1. The (ship mariners) don't pay much attention to the "impede" clause. They focus on the steering rules.

2. That said, his opinion was that if the ship had to maneuver (at all) to avoid us in a TSS, that we had 'impeded".

3. Their strong preference was that we try to avoid getting in their way, but more importantly that we act in a stable an predictable way (course and speed) and they will then plan out a small maneuver to avoid us if necessary.

As we saw in the video of the race, in Great Britain it's the law to stay out of their way. But we sailors have to behave predictably. That means that if you need to change course you do it in a timely way and you do it quite plainly so it's crystal clear to the freighter captain where you're going to be. No one should have any doubt about what we're doing with our tiny little vessels.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

As we saw in the video of the race, in Great Britain it's the law to stay out of their way.

That's a local law where inbound ships hanging a right around Bramble Bank have a moving exclusion zone poking along with them...

What many people don't realise is what a remarkably large wind shadow big ships carry with them.... that can truly stuff up your day...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

That's a local law where inbound ships hanging a right around Bramble Bank have a moving exclusion zone poking along with them...

What many people don't realise is what a remarkably large wind shadow big ships carry with them.... that can truly stuff up your day...

I think they'd have to be pretty inexperienced sailors to not realize that. I saw this video about a year ago and wondered then what in the world the skipper was thinking, but then a whole group of other boats in the race followed along, nearly as close to the freighter. Me, I like my mast vertical with no head injuries ...

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I was giving a seminar at the Maritime Institute today (a professional mariner training campus in Baltimore) and at lunch sat next to a senior ship captain who gave navigation and colreg seminars. I asked him about "impede" in TSS.

His reaction was threefold:

1. The (ship mariners) don't pay much attention to the "impede" clause. They focus on the steering rules.

2. That said, his opinion was that if the ship had to maneuver (at all) to avoid us in a TSS, that we had 'impeded".

3. Their strong preference was that we try to avoid getting in their way, but more importantly that we act in a stable an predictable way (course and speed) and they will then plan out a small maneuver to avoid us if necessary.

This is virtually identical to what I hear when I talk with the skippers of big ships (including catamaran ferries). Generally, they prefer that we remain stable and let them maneuver, since their experience is that many boaters don't know what they are doing (re: colregs).

Raku - Your "turn and run" tactic is fine - assuming there is so much distance and time that you can maneuver in a timely and clear manner. Unfortunately, this is frequently not the case when you are sailing in an area with many large ships and innumerable smaller boats. There simply isn't the opportunity. Turning out of one vessels way will often put you squarely in another vessels way.

Therefore it is imperative to know and follow the colregs.

"I am ABSOLUTELY entitled to change course. The fact that a freighter is out there does not, by itself, dictate the course I take. What I AM required to do is to make any course change VERY clear and to do it in a timely way. "

I tink if you go back and read the colregs carefully, you will see the fallacy of the above statement. Other traffic and conditions, certainly can dictate the course you take.

[monte]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I was giving a seminar at the Maritime Institute today (a professional mariner training campus in Baltimore) and at lunch sat next to a senior ship captain who gave navigation and colreg seminars. I asked him about "impede" in TSS.

His reaction was threefold:

1. The (ship mariners) don't pay much attention to the "impede" clause. They focus on the steering rules.

2. That said, his opinion was that if the ship had to maneuver (at all) to avoid us in a TSS, that we had 'impeded".

3. Their strong preference was that we try to avoid getting in their way, but more importantly that we act in a stable an predictable way (course and speed) and they will then plan out a small maneuver to avoid us if necessary.

That makes perfect sense. And if it came to the courts for some reason the argument would be over the definition of Impeding. Its definitely prudent to plan any navigation in a TSS that avoids forcing a Ship to alter course or speed. I think this is reasonable and doable. Personally I prefer cross a TSS at as close to 90 degrees as possible and navigate in the inshore zone or offshore. Then again the last 2 I crossed were closer to 45 degrees to give the maximum clearance to ships restricted to the TSS.
I know goatboatingnow said we have a right to navigate inside the TSS, not just cross, and that impeding doesn't mean another vessel having to alter course to avoid close quarters but that is something I would generally try to avoid. I think most of us prefer alter course in a timely and obvious manner to allow ships, ferry's, fishing vessels and anyone else who is working at sea to maintain their course and speed to go about their business without interruption, additional time/expense. A good watch, taking bearings, radar and AIS, good understanding of COLREGS and VHF communication can all make that a lot easier as well. I rarely use VHF though as 80% of the time the captains don't speak English, and the other 20% the English speakers can't understand Austraylyan...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by monte

I rarely use VHF though as 80% of the time the captains don't speak English, and the other 20% the English speakers can't understand Austraylyan...

I thort that it was 'Strayan that they talked in 'Straya...

The lingo has changed since I was a pup.....

Altering course when risk of collision exists? Hmmmm... when is risk of collision deemed to exist? If in my day job I have a ship on a constant bearing when ten miles away am I obliged as the 'stand on' ship to keep on standing on ?

Or can I alter course when I reach my alter course position ( aka 'waypoint' in 'new speak') while still 5 miles away?

For my money if I am on the bridge of a big boat small craft can do whatever they please .... until they enter my bit of water be it a TSS , a channel where I am restricted by my draught or whatever... by then they should have decided one way or the other what they are planning to do.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by monte

I know goatboatingnow said we have a right to navigate inside the TSS, not just cross, and that impeding doesn't mean another vessel having to alter course to avoid close quarters but that is something I would generally try to avoid..

Yes, the captain/instructor I chatted with mentioned the "sea room" issue, and I specifically asked "but what if the TSS is really wide and there is lots of sea room". His opinion was that we impeded (if we forced them to maneuver) in a TSS even if they had sea room to manouver.

He may not be "right" about this , because as as I said above he said they don't pay much attention to the impede clause, but that seems to be at least the US ship driver's/instructor's perspective/interpretation. So, it's at least useful for us to know what they are likely thinking on a US ship's bridge. It is certaintly possible that there is a difference in national interpretations on this

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

There could be no justification for a leisure boater staying in the channel, much less doing that and then expecting a big freighter to give way (only by slowing up) -- even if under sail power.

Rubbish, there is no reason for a yacht not to use a channel. The one exception that I can think of is Portsmouth Harbour which has a local byelaw restricting small boats to their own dedicated small boat channel, otherwise if want to use a channel then do so.

Pete

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Rubbish, there is no reason for a yacht not to use a channel. The one exception that I can think of is Portsmouth Harbour which has a local byelaw restricting small boats to their own dedicated small boat channel, otherwise if want to use a channel then do so.

Pete

Queens Channel Liverpool, stray outside of that and you'll be on the submerged training walls, as well as having VTS on the radio asking WTF are you doing.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Yes, the captain/instructor I chatted with mentioned the "sea room" issue, and I specifically asked "but what if the TSS is really wide and there is lots of sea room". His opinion was that we impeded (if we forced them to maneuver) in a TSS even if they had sea room to manouver.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.
UK are pretty similar, although if enough sea room, I would not consider that a small boat has impeded me if I need to take action as per the steering rules. I might be impeded if my alteration puts me in a close quarters situation with another ship, and that is why it is so important that everyone should have a clear understanding of the Colregs, and not get tunnel visioned on just a 2 vessel situation.
Rule 8, needs to be understood by everyone using TSS and narrow channels etc

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by monte

That makes perfect sense. And if it came to the courts for some reason the argument would be over the definition of Impeding. Its definitely prudent to plan any navigation in a TSS that avoids forcing a Ship to alter course or speed. I think this is reasonable and doable. Personally I prefer cross a TSS at as close to 90 degrees as possible and navigate in the inshore zone or offshore. Then again the last 2 I crossed were closer to 45 degrees to give the maximum clearance to ships restricted to the TSS.
I know goatboatingnow said we have a right to navigate inside the TSS, not just cross, and that impeding doesn't mean another vessel having to alter course to avoid close quarters but that is something I would generally try to avoid. I think most of us prefer alter course in a timely and obvious manner to allow ships, ferry's, fishing vessels and anyone else who is working at sea to maintain their course and speed to go about their business without interruption, additional time/expense. A good watch, taking bearings, radar and AIS, good understanding of COLREGS and VHF communication can all make that a lot easier as well. I rarely use VHF though as 80% of the time the captains don't speak English, and the other 20% the English speakers can't understand Austraylyan...

Of course. It actually isn't enough to follow the COLREGS, because the captain of the ferry doesn't know you're familiar with them. Your moves have to be timely and obvious.

That's what I've always said, and anyone who distorts it is just making ship up.