Boat Buying

[Stede]

I ran across the following items which I thought were interesting:

Elements Boat Buyers Should Consider When Choosing A Boat.Most Important (Top) ,To Least Important (Bottom),According To Carl Lane

Safety
Comfort
Appearance
Cost
Upkeep cost
Investment return
Resale possibilities

Elements Actually Considered By Most Boat Buyers,Most Important (Top) To Least Important (Bottom). According To Yacht Designer Maurice Griffiths

Appearance
Accomodations
Rig
Shape of the stern
Engine installation
Hull design

[GordMay]

Stede:
While interesting, I don't think the listings really offer much practical use. They address a complex subject too concisely.

ie:
Lane doesn't list accommodations as "important" - yet any boat that won't accommodate my needs is of no use to me - no matter how "safe" etc. To suggest that there is an investment return on boats, is to be misleading (IMO)

Perhaps (most of) Griffiths list could be a sub-set of Lane's Investment & resale criteria.

Does Jimmy Cornell still publish his "Cruisers' Poll", in which Cruisers list their boat criteria?

regards,
Gord

[Stede]

Gord,

I agree with you. Apparently, Mr.Lane has never heard the saying, " a boat is a hole in the water to throw money into." I thought the lists were interesting because the criteria listed is quite a bit different than my own. Posting the lists, I thought might generate some discussion.Maybe a more accurate list from a cruisers perspective concerning priorities in purchasing a boat?

[BC Mike]

Interesting that sailing ability is not to be considered, at least not on this list. Resale value comes before sailing ability?? I will agree that safety should be at the top. What people actually ask about when buying a boat. Amount of space in the forward diddly room, toilet, cooking area, colour. These are usual responses when you ask what they are looking for or when shown a boat. I did not sell any boats over 30 feet so the responses may be different for bigger boats. BC Mike C

[Stede]

Yeah, this is a rather strange list. Of course there are many factors to be considered for a list, and as Gord mentioned, it is a complex decision to make. My list is as follows:

Cost - Any sailor with moderate financial means has to start with this factor IMO.

Rig- Preferred fractional rigged sloop.O.k., Jeff...you convinced me on the better ease of handling single-handed.

Build quality/Safety

PHRF/boat spec.numbers - (Nothing above 150,preferably much lower) I want a boat that sails well in light air and able to handle heavy stuff. I think this deals with what you intend to do with the boat. I'm looking at it as a live aboard, blue water cruiser selection. The more I would have to motor, the more associated costs.

Draft - Directly related to desired cruising area.

Accomadations - Many factors here. Preferred L shape galley, etc.

I imagine eveyones list is different determined by needs.Upkeep is a consideration, but investment return and resale would be at the bottom of my list.

[another sailor]

Good topic and agreed it is one that is more complex than any simple discussion could answer. Having just purchesed my first boat (for the purpose of one year family cruising from east coast to west through panama canal) here's how I approached the decision. I wrote down a list that had three columns. The first contained features that I really thought I must have, the second column was really for the extras that would be nice to have and the third column was only for things I definitely did not want in a boat. Obviously, the boat which had almost everything from the first, as many as I could find from the second and hopefully none from the third, well, that would be the boat. I actually only re-looked at the list after I completed the purchase and found that for the most part that is what I got.

I would put the priorities on seaworthiness with decent performance and upwind ability, simple but well engineered systems, reasonable maintanence needs, cost, size for cruising provisions and also lwl for speed, skeg hung rudder, good strong diesel, lead keel. I avoided anything that was raced hard, whimpy rigging, slow in light air or requiring heavy upgrading.

Resale was very important to me so I looked at boats that have reached a plateau in their prices and I plan to sell after one year of cruising (or at least that's the promise I made to my wife ;- )).
Chris

[GordMay]

Lists, like these are very useful - for yourself, and for a broker or anyone else helping you find your dream boat.
The more specific you can make your list, the more useful it will be. I’d suggest that you list specific features, rather than broad, generic qualities, attributes, or characteristics.
eg:
~ Stede lists a “Fractional Sloop Rig”, (& could add Roller-Furling, or whatever) to describe his “easily handled rig”.
~ And specifies “PHRF below 150" describing a “quick” boat.
~ He’d have you fill in your draft requirement (with an actual min./max. number) when
you’ve determined your cruising area(s).

These are all criteria I could use to critique & refine his specifications, and also help determine if a proposed boat meets them.

However
~ He lists “Build Quality & Safety” [I presume meaning high quality ] which leaves me completely at sea, baffled as to his actual preferences.
This criteria needs specifics, like (in no particular order):
a. Bolted hull/deck connections
b. 16" Bridge Deck (cockpit sole to companionway)
c. ... Whatever you know to be important ...

Criteria, such as "Seaworthiness & Upwind Ability" don't tell me anything about your actual requirements. I could try to make my own assumptions about what features will satisfy your requirements, but ... Has a broker or Owner) ever told anyone that the boat he is showing is "Unseaworthy"?

So, my quetion to all is:
What specific features do you think makes a boat:
A) Seaworthy & Safe ?
B) Easily Handled (by your crew) ?
C) Liveable (At Sea, @ Anchor, and @ Dockside) ?
D) Affordable (Capital cost, Cost of Ownership, & Resale Value)
E) Whatever other Characteristics I've missed ?

OMO

[Stede]

Gord,

You're right about some of my remarks concerning selection criteria being vague.My actual list for selection criteria is rather long,and I thought I would just toss out the basics.

I think you've done a good job establishing the specifics list,i.e.-

A) Seaworthy & Safe ?
B) Easily Handled (by your crew) ?
C) Liveable (At Sea, @ Anchor, and @ Dockside) ?
D) Affordable (Capital cost, Cost of Ownership, & Resale Value)
E) Whatever other Characteristics I've missed ?

Maybe we could take these items one at a time to discuss, then at the conclusion compile them into a final list? More later....

[tynaspi]

Hi all,

My wife and I are planning to go crusing for a year hopefully in a month or two. I've spent so much time investigating different boats and have arrived at a '67 Islander 37' sloop which I plan on purchasing next month.

My first priority was safety, as neither my wife or myself are experienced sailors. Second was price. Here's the problem. Not having experience, I don't really *know* what safety really consists of. I have chosen this Islander because it's heavy (early readings made me think heavier was better).

-quick stats; 16k# displacement, 5k# ballast, 6' draft, 28'4 LWL and 37' LOA.

Cruising plans = caribbean, canal, S. America and possibly Fiji, but this could all change as we're not particular.

I know that no one can truley say, "yes, this boat will be fine" as so many posters tend to ask, "Can I do this with this boat?" and there is no straight answer.

However, all I really want to know is: "Can I do this with this boat?"

Anyway, all opinions, good or bad, would be greatly appreciated.

-Andy

[delmarrey]

Welcome aboard!

My suggestion, with a vessel that old, would be to get the best surveyor you can find and LISTEN to what he has to SAY! The older vessels were usually over built, so the chances are that the hull is pretty strong. It's the rigging and deck fittings that would be next on the list, and then the motor/ machinery.

As for safety, it's not necessarily the boat that makes it safe but the Captian, his experience and the use of that experience that makes it safe. And that includes the up keep of the vessel and equipment.

One more thing, learn as much as you can and keep learning. Don't stop! And get as much experience out on the water in all conditions that you can. Starting with light conditions, of course, and working your way into heavy-er stuff with time.

You've tapped into a good source of info HERE (Cruiser Forum)! Check out other forums as well!

Regards, Del......................_/)

[BC Mike]

I think the size is about right. Every time I draw a boat with enough room it is 36 feet long. Bigger scares me more than smaller. I am not familiar with the boat but as already mentioned your ability to sail it is the most important aspect. Caution and care will get you there is the motto of the Ontario provincial police and I think it fits. The folks that purchase large boats as their first concern me a lot more than experienced small boat sailors. We have a small boat at about 29 feet LOA. BC Mike C

[Jeff H]

Andy,

I hate to rain on your parade, but Islander of the 1960's were intended as bargain basement boats. They were the Hunters of thier day only without Hunters care in meeting minimum safety standards and now these boats are 35-40 years old. They were build as coastal cruisers and the construction never was meant for offshore work. If your first priority is safety then you are really looking at the wrong boat.

You are somewhat mistaken when you say "Heavy is better". Weight in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it more stable, seaworthy, stronger, durable, comfortable in a seaway, capable of carrying more supplies or faster. It just makes it heavier, use more fuel, harder to handle and more expensive to own.

When you look at the 'stats' this is an underballasted boat. Ballast ratios down around 30% on boats with comparatively shallow keels tend to be tender and have small angles of positive stability.

These were boats with a very vulnerable rudder design, poor tracking. As much as I like fin keel spade rudder boats, these are a poster child for the problems that gave Fin keels and spade rudders a bad name.


You are proposing to sail into some pretty tough venues. A really good sailor could make a trip like this, but a really good sailor probably would chose to do so a better boat. While you don't need all of the bells and whistles of a modern boat, beefing up the structure and replacing the essentials sufficiently to put a boat like this in a proper condition for that kind of voyaging would cost many times the boat's purchase price.

As has been said, you need to spend more time studying so that you understand what is a desirable boat for that kind of voyaging. You may be able to find a suitable boat in the general price range of a 1960's Islander in good shape but you will need to understand a lot more about boats to know whether you are wandering down a dangerous dead end alley, or waltzing your way into a reasonable set of choices.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[Jeff H]

Del,

Just for the record, it is very much a mistake to think that older boats were over built just because they were heavy. That is extremely far from true. The materials, both resins and cloths were nowhere near as strong as the materials that we use today even on high production boats. Due to the materials being used, poor handling practices, the use of a lot of accellerators, boats of this era were far more brittle and fatigue prone. Insurance company studies show that these older laminates are way more prone to damage from impact and that small amounts of damage are more likely to tear into a larger portion of the hull.

Boats of this era were nearly devoid of internal framing which is now considered to be a critical component in any proper sailing yacht structure.

Because of their higher weight, often resulting from heavier interior furnishings these boats have higher loadings than newer boats.

There is nothing overbuilt about these older boats. That is a mythology that simply has not held up in practice.

Sorry Dude,
Jeff

[delmarrey]

Didn't want to insult the guy out right on his first post. Go back and read my first sentence. I figure he needs some education not a slap in the face. The surveyor should have set him straight. Just trying to soften the blow!

Peace Bro....

[Jeff H]

Hi Del,

The thing about the internet and my writing style is that things almost always come out sounding harsher than I meant them to be. I thought you raised some excellent points and that your points were well written. I was only trying to comment on the myth that older boats were somehow overbuilt because they were often a little heavier than newer boats.

Pax,
Jeff