BOAT FOR SALE noticed trends

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Rising Tide

geoleo, you are the person who was selling a Beneteau O400 a few years ago? If so, I remember the boat was in good shape. But it took you a while to sell. Brokers more than likely add some value, otherwise, they would not exist and everyone would buy and sell from each other. A person can choose to work through a broker or not. If all boats are over priced by 20%, then isn't that the market? Is the 20% just an arbitrary benchmark? I too suffered from looking at many boats thinking if only they were less expensive.

Most people selling property for themselves over estimate the value. They are not discounting the property by the amount of broker's fees, they are trying make more money.

Sorry I am not that person who sold a beneteau. I did sell a brewer 12.8-- I had it with a broker for a year he couldn't sell it I dismissed him-fixed all the things that came up on a survey and sold it myself thru Craigslist. looking back I realized I was originally asking too much for it as I was losing money--oh well.I also sold my wifes house thru Craigslist in 3 weeks. Being retired mostly I do have time to deal with hullkickers LOL

[LouK]

What are you looking for? I’ve got a very sweet O’Day 34 ready to hit the market.

Lou

[drewm3i]

Where are you and what type of boats?

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by drewm3i

Where are you and what type of boats?

Draft 5-0 max

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by geoleo

Draft 5-0 max

Tampa and Gulf Coast

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Dave Lochner

Brokers won't list boats that are strewn with trash or have brown stuff floating in the head.

A boat in my marina exhibited poor housekeeping, with dog food stored in open bags, dog hair every where, and generally unkept appearance. The broker wrote a letter to the owners and told them to get the boat professionally clean and empty and they would consider listing the boat.

The owners were not happy about the letter.

Yes, I’m constantly amazed how some sellers present their boats for sale. Galley counters loaded with everything you can imagine, tools, paint cans, rags, food, you name it. Same with other areas of the boat, stateroom loaded with unfolded blanket, a half filled drawer laying on the bunk. Tells you a lot about maintenance performed on the boat.

[malbert73]

Last boat I sold was on sailboat listings and I sold within 24 hours of posting it. Obviously could have priced higher but nothing like a quick sale for ease and money savings. But it actually was 20% more than I paid (and obviously nowhere close to what I put into it in the 7 years I owned).
Best is to get a boat pristine, empty it out, post a ton of pictures, and price it to sell. Selling problems are always a mismatch between seller’s valuation vs market reality.
Used boat market is really soft so prices need to reflect that. Otherwise take your place in line to host all of the tirekickers, month after month

[CF32907]

Hi all, CaptVR here. I was a professional marine surveyor most of my life. I've known and worked with brokers daily. For the most part, the brokers bust their humps to get the money they do. Remember they split the fee with the brokerage house. Many times it's split again with the listing broker. Also you have the saleman that has kickback to the licensed broker. So, you pay a brokerage fee of $8k to sell a $100k boat, by the time it gets split up, your broker/salesman got maybe $2k for the deal. That may sound like a lot for what he does, but he or she may have had 4 or five deals on this boat, over the last 3 months. They could have spent a hundred hours in total, not making a dime, actually costing them money in showing the boat. Most brokers I know, are honest, hard working individuals. You must remember, there also statesmen, it takes a talented salesperson to broker an acceptable compromise to make the deal fly, after the marine survey is done. Of course, just like other professions, you do have some that would sell a racing shell to a quadriplegic and not have remorse, but this is an exception.
Also, the broker tells the seller what the selling price should be, he don't want the price jacked up, he does not get paid if it don't sell. He also builds fires under sellers to clean them up, throw junk out, empty crap out of lockers. He will spend 4-6 hours taking a listing, going over the boat, telling owner obvious corrections needed that will help sell the boat.
So all you folks that think your salesman is over paid, well, like most other professions. Some are, like high end addresses in Ft.Lauderdale, WPB, Annapolis, but most brokers / sales people are just hard working individuals that just make a living like most others.
Very few get rich, they do it because they love boating and the camaraderie of boaters. Just thought I would throw a different perspective on the broker, behind the boat purchase. Happy sailing to all... Capt. Vince Rakstis, Ret. St.Petersburg, Fl.

[Hoodsail]

When looking for my current boat, drove to NJ from CT in the winter to look at an early 1980's Sabre 34....broker waited in his heated car as I crawled over, around, & thru her. Never seen so much hard alcohol in my life! every crevice, cupboard, shelf had partially filled fifths of every type of clear alcohol made...I should have taken pictures...suffice it to say, didnt put an offer in, too much deferred maintenance. Mentioned the stores of alcohol to the dealer and he nodded, acknowledging that the seller's reason for selling was issues w/ alcohol.
I sold a 1983 Catalina 27 because the list price of the boat didnt warrant a broker....and she was spotless. So much for trends..

[Happ]

Interesting that very little has been said about Surveyors. Part of survey includes a valuation of the boat. How do they evaluate the value? They use sources like Buc Book and others that gives the prices paid. From that a surveyor can evaluate the condition and equipment on a boat and factor that in with the sale prices he is seeing. Many of these sources are available to the general public at a price. By the way the brokers pay for access to this information as well.

Another thing to look at is boats go up and down with its location. For instance I like buying a boat in the northeast in late fall as the boats are getting ready to be hauled for the winter. The owners all know they won’t sell it until it is back in the water in the spring. They don’t want to pay for winter costs so they will sell the boats at a much lower price.

I’ve also found some boats have equipment that might be a good value if you want it. For instance an in mast fueling main helps keep prices up because people see value in them. If you don’t like them you can most likely find one with out it at a reduced price.

The last thing is owners can become attached to their boats. Maybe they raised their kids onboard. In negotiating for a boat you have to get the owner to see his memories have no value to you.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Happ

Interesting that very little has been said about Surveyors. Part of survey includes a valuation of the boat. How do they evaluate the value? They use sources like Buc Book and others that gives the prices paid.

Actually none of the various guides BUC, NADA etc. provide actual sales prices. Their values are projected based on depreciation tables and other economic measurements. I find their numbers to be erratic and unreliable although I do use them in my valuations as counterpoint.

The only source that provides actual sales prices and related sales data is YachtWorlds other website soldboats.com. This is the major source of values used by almost all full time, qualified surveyors.

An example of one of my valuation pages is attached. It shows just the highlights but not all of the methods I use to determine value.

[mghorton]

I have sold three boats using brokers and each one was sold in less than a week at very close to my/broker recommended asking price Big plus is that a broker often has a potential customer looking for a specific boat. Worth every penny not to have to deal with time wasters and dreamers. Also I am very particular on presenting the boat to get that positive first impression which is one of the most important things a seller can do.
On the other hand, my current Dufour GL325 was being sold through a broker and was very neglected cosmetically with 125 issues that needed to be fixed . Some quite nasty but all within DIY capabilities. Offered 50% of asking price with to do list and costs as support. Owner resisted strongly until his broker basically told him that after two years on the market it was my offer or nothing. Boat is now fixed and a beauty.

Point is, many brokers are well worth the money and their presentation and pricing advice, customer base and listings access can get top dollar or find a bargain. However many are not so conscientious so research and credentials are critical. I sold a nicely cared for 35 ft. Dufour very quickly through a broker back in 2010. Eight years later it was on the market again having been sadly neglected, but another broker from the same firm as my sale used all of my photos and listing info from the 2010 transaction. Can’t get much dumber and lazy than that.

[GrowleyMonster]

Early last year me and GF started looking for a bigger boat. Found a lot of boats within our budget. Some were wrecks or obvious projects that would take 5 years to complete. One guy wouldn't start the diesel for me. Said mechanic told him not to run it until he replaced all the belts and hoses. Riiiiiiiiight... Another guy I asked if I could look at a survey, even an old one. There wasn't one. I asked how he got insurance. He didn't have any. Didn't need it, he said, because he never took the boat out and that was one reason it was in such tip top shape. LOL!!! Another boat, a Morgan OI, (we looked at quite a few of those) the sewage tank was completely filled up and overflowing into the head. It was horrible. He had been living aboard for a few years but had never pumped the tank out. When I said I was not touching his boat and especially 5 years worth of his crap, he said it was only about a years worth, since he had been crapping in a bucket and dumping it overboard since it was full, and anyway there were plenty of "Messkins" as he pronouncificated it, hanging out at Home Depot who would take care of it for $50 which begged the question of why he hadn't done that already. Price was suspiciously low. I suspect he was getting kicked off the dock by the property owner or else had been busted for dumping his night bucket over the side. That was another one who wouldn't start the engine. Said he didn't know how and wouldn't let me do it. Somehow I kinda believed him on the not knowing how part. Passed on all these, and more. Simple lack of cleanliness wasn't going to faze us at our price point. Total unliveaboardability and unseaworthiness and deception by the seller were a different matter. When you want more boat than what you are willing to pay for, you gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your princess. We finally found a sorta project that was taking up a lot of the little available space at a small shipyard and boy did he want to get that boat out of there. He fixed a lot of issues with state registration, etc that I pointed out, let me stay on the boat a couple days and fiddle with the engine and things, and next thing you know we were $9500 poorer, sailing our 44' Bruce Roberts to her new home in New Orleans.

You can get a boat for cheap, but only if you are patient and keep your ear to the ground. And don't worry about a little filth and clutter. Main thing is being able to get the boat home safely, and having good proof of ownership. There WILL be surprises, and that should be no surprise. Most of those surprises will be bad ones. It's the nature of the beast.

Lower price tier boats are not very interesting to brokers. The potential buyers are hard to weed out from the tire kickers and it is easy to wast a couple weeks trying to sell a boat that is only good for a few hundred bucks commission. A broker is not going to touch a boat without proper hull number, registration and title, or documentation. He is also likely to tell the owner to remove any equipment that does not work, and replace what is required. Engine doesn't run? Won't get listed by the couple of brokers I know, anyway They are going to want the seller to see to a lot of cleanup and maintenance catch-up, and the asking price is going to be quite a bit more than the rock bottom price. A boat represented by a broker is not such a bad thing if you are serious about buying that particular boat and you are a sensible bargainer with the means available to buy right away. Especially for an inexperienced buyer. A broker has a big incentive to be reasonably honest with buyers and not take too much unfair advantage with those less knowledgeable.

Buying a seller represented boat is more of a crap shoot. He wants to sell even more than a broker would want to sell. He has a little less incentive to be honest with a buyer. He is maybe gonna clean the boat up really nice in an effort to squeeze out a better price, but maybe not. He might not be ready in all respects to sell immediately, especially if he is a liveaboard. A lot of buyers will walk away sooner rather than later. Eventually some of those guys get desperate enough to just take an offer. The smart buyer might pick up a pretty good deal. An utter newbie buying from a complete stranger is probably gonna get taken to the cleaners.

And if you really really want to buy a particular boat and have a good feeling about it, and it is not gonna happen for less than $10k, get a survey. You will probably need one anyway, once you have bought it. Maybe the seller will split the cost with you, and then have a survey report to show other buyers should you end up turning it down.

[NormanMartin]

We are in the hunt for another boat. I see two things, first, older boat prices are falling and two, a boat is left to rot when the owner has fallen out of love with the boat.

We have stopped looking at projects as they are just too much work and not enough sailing.

Have fun...

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by NormanMartin

We are in the hunt for another boat. I see two things, first, older boat prices are falling and two, a boat is left to rot when the owner has fallen out of love with the boat.

We have stopped looking at projects as they are just too much work and not enough sailing.

Have fun...

curious what you are seeing that you consider older? We are in a long term search for our next boat and watching several boats we like that have been on the market for awhile now but seem to us to be over priced and waiting for their price to fall. These boats are now in the 5-8 year range which doesn't seem that old. To me older is often more than 10 years and these boats are the ones I see in poor condition. Just my observations.