Boat length NOT increasing over the decades

[Colin A]

For new boat sales if you count all sailboats the average likely does not change much as sales of day sailers and dinghies have not fallen as much as cruising auxiliary boats. If you just look at cruising boats with aux engines, the data shows a very clear trend line in new boats to larger sizes. It looks like the upwards trend has slowed since the housing crisis.

Forgot to add in general new sail boats sales are still lousy in US. So as someone else mentioned the age of the cursing boat fleet is incredibly old here, which will have an effect on the size thing. Lots of 30-50 year old sailboats around.

[JPA Cate]

Maybe Don CL could start a business re-habbing the old Columbias, for re-sale at a profit, like people did restoring Victorian houses?

[Colin A]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Maybe Don CL could start a business re-habbing the old Columbias, for re-sale at a profit, like people did restoring Victorian houses?

There amazingly enough are guys making a living just rehabbing classic plastic sailboats. Just not very many of them.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

...
I personally agree with the Goldilocks theory - somewhere under 35' is 'too small for most for the long term' and somewhere over 52' is 'too big (and expensive) for most couples to run for the long term'...

Originally Posted by Jammer

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For long crossings, the upper bound of boat size is constrained by the need for a cruising couple to be physically able to handle the sails without powered machinery (leaving aside the minority of cruisers who undertake passages with larger crew). That puts the limit at around 40-45' unless a second mast is added, a tradeoff that is currently not in vogue....

I think Evans and Jammer have got it right but there is more to it than sail plan and sail handling.

At some point, boat length can only get so long for a cruising couple. There is a maximum length that is usable and affordable from a usable space perspective. Going larger really does not buy you much. If there are only going to be two people on the boat most of the time, why have the extra boat length with the extra costs that result?

A berth only needs to be a certain length for average size people. You only need some many seats in the salon if two people are always on board. A head/bathroom only has to be so large. There really is a reasonable, finite boat length from a space point of view.

Boat length will really jump if someone wants/needs more than two staterooms. An extra stateroom, especially if the requirement is for a "bedroom" space, will really increase the LOA. But if the boat is for a couple there is a reasonable boat length to provide the space they really needed and that is not going to change from decade to decade.

Later,
Dan

[Jim Cate]

But if the boat is for a couple there is a reasonable boat length to provide the space they really needed and that is not going to change from decade to decade.

While this is certainly true, folks PERCEIVED need for space has changed for sure. One needs only to read the many posts here on CF from folks buying what is often their first boat and who "need" vast amounts of room and amenities to avoid the dread "only camping, not cruising" syndrome.

You know, it even happened to the Hiscocks! They eventually sold Wanderer III and built a series of larger boats for themselves. It's been a while since I read them, but I seem to remember Eric sometimes regretting the move and fondly remembering the simplicity and ease of use for the "tiny" 30 foot boat of the past.

And Mike, I think that inspecting the size of berths in new marina construction shows what those folks think boat size is doing! And the fact that it is often easy to find a small berth when there are long waiting lists for bigger ones!

Jim

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

While this is certainly true, folks PERCEIVED need for space has changed for sure. One needs only to read the many posts here on CF from folks buying what is often their first boat and who "need" vast amounts of room and amenities to avoid the dread "only camping, not cruising" syndrome.
...
And Mike, I think that inspecting the size of berths in new marina construction shows what those folks think boat size is doing! And the fact that it is often easy to find a small berth when there are long waiting lists for bigger ones!

I think you’re right on both counts Jim. One only needs to look at average house sizes (at least in North America). Over the same period we’re considering (70s to present) houses sizes have gone up considerably, even while average family sizes have shrunk. There is no need for larger spaces, but today people want a lot more than in the past. I believe the same thing has happened with boats.

This is exactly why I find it so interesting that west coast circumnavigator boat sizes have not increased — at least according to this one specific dataset. Unless there is something very odd about this group (which is possible), there must be some countervailing effect which has kept boat sizes down.

[toddster8]

Really? In the last few decades, my need for space has definitely decreased. Thanks to laptop computers, cellular phones, electronic books and music - stuff that used to take up half my house now fits in a backpack.

Sports gear takes up a lot of room though. Big new boats with cavernous cockpit lockers and dinghy garages have the win there.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Over the same period we’re considering (70s to present) houses sizes have gone up considerably, even while average family sizes have shrunk. There is no need for larger spaces, but today people want a lot more than in the past.

There are a number of specific causes of this, if you peel back the data.

1. There is now a societal expectation that each child living at home will have their own bedroom. As recently as the 1970s, same-gender children would share bedrooms, even in the houses of well-off parents who could have afforded separate rooms had they chosen to do so.
2. The growth in popularity of the en suite bathroom, driven by the a desire for greater sexual privacy.
3. A general trend in ordinances, covenants, and societal expectations of discouraging the practical use of outdoor areas and the construction of outbuildings.

I believe the same thing has happened with boats.

I think there's a lot more to see than meets the eye. Some of the trends I think are at work:

1. As you mention in some of your analysis, the data is skewed by the growing popularity of superyachts, both among people who can afford them, and as crewed charters. These are rarely if ever taken on long passages by their owners, so they don't appear in your data set.
2. Increased numbers of family groups larger than a couple cruising together. Couples with kids, couples with parents. Privacy becomes a factor, and space is needed to attain it. Again these family groups are less likely to take long passages, though some do
3. Influence of the charter industry and part-time cruisers. Someone who is cruising 4 weeks a year and placing the boat with a charter agency the balance of the year is going to want a larger boat, because they are more marketable as charters.
4. Construction data is influenced by the fact that purchasers who can afford a large yacht are more likely to purchase new. There is little interest in refitting 70' boats. I believe that larger boats end up with a shorter useful life for this reason. In contrast people are refitting old Pearsons and C&Cs etc because it is cost effective -- which depresses the sales numbers

It will interesting to see what time will bring to the used boat market. It's pretty clear to me that the average age of a cruising boat is going to increase over the years. The plastic classics last longer than the wooden boats did and require less upkeep. The availability of quality GRP boats is recent compared to their average useful life.

[Olddan1943]

I bought a shorter boat because no one wanted to go with me. Why should I pay for the second stateroom?

[AKA-None]

Doesn't sailboat data have info on various builds including years produced and numbers? I wonder what might be gleaned from that?

[Mike OReilly]

I agree Jammer, lots of factors go into the size choice for houses, and for boats. Which are cause, and which are effect, are hard to differentiate. I think housing sizes are mostly determined by economics. In fact, I predict that we will see a dramatic decline in average house size in the coming decades as Baby Boomers move into condos (or 6-feet under), and upcoming generations become poorer.

In fact, in many housing markets this trend is already alive and well, with the huge growth of condos, and the rise of the “tiny house” trend.

Cruising boat size is less impacted by overall economics b/c it is always the tiny few, mostly rich, who can afford big boats anyway. But the trend you mention about increasing average age of used boats is something you’d expect to see with declining average wealth.

[hellosailor]

I don't know, Mike. I think 42 is popular first because a lot of makers have been making 42' boats for a long time. Somewhere around 38 or 42 (and some nominal 38's have been closer to 42 OAL) you start to get the ability to have an aft cabin of some sort, and two really functional heads, and enough tankage and storage space to comfortable have four people on board. Which makes for a good 2+2 watch shift. And a really roomy boat for just two people. But also, a handful to handle for many solo sailors. And somewhere in that same size range, you start to "need" more than a six foot draft, or a centerboard, which again complicates life and limits where you will be going.
So unless a "cruiser" has a big family, or seven dwarves as sidekicks, more than 42' starts to fall into George Carlin's "Too Much Stuff!" especially when paying marinas by the foot.
Heck, in 42' you've got room for a real reefer, a/c, heating, OK maybe a dive compressor starts to get a little tight...but I'd also point out that at 42' OAL, the guy on the wheel and the guy on the bow have to REALLY SHOUT LOUD to hear each other. Which is a very practical reason to buy a slightly shorter boat. Or learn to sign.(G)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I don't know, Mike. I think 42 is popular first because a lot of makers have been making 42' boats for a long time. Somewhere around 38 or 42 (and some nominal 38's have been closer to 42 OAL) you start to get the ability to have an aft cabin of some sort, and two really functional heads, and enough tankage and storage space to comfortable have four people on board. Which makes for a good 2+2 watch shift. And a really roomy boat for just two people. But also, a handful to handle for many solo sailors. And somewhere in that same size range, you start to "need" more than a six foot draft, or a centerboard, which again complicates life and limits where you will be going.
So unless a "cruiser" has a big family, or seven dwarves as sidekicks, more than 42' starts to fall into George Carlin's "Too Much Stuff!" especially when paying marinas by the foot.
Heck, in 42' you've got room for a real reefer, a/c, heating, OK maybe a dive compressor starts to get a little tight...but I'd also point out that at 42' OAL, the guy on the wheel and the guy on the bow have to REALLY SHOUT LOUD to hear each other. Which is a very practical reason to buy a slightly shorter boat. Or learn to sign.(G)

Yes … another way of stating my Goldilocks theory I suppose. It’s in contrast to the common discussion here about Big is Better, or Go Small. I think one interpretation of the data is that there is a Right size for long-term cruising, and you’ve hit on some of the reasons.

[atmartin]

We recently did the up-size: 31' to 43'.

Lots of reasons. It does seem to be a Goldilocks size.

I wonder about the stature of long-term small boat lovers. I'm 6'6". After years of living aboard a small boat and working on other people's boats, I was getting pretty scrunched up with the usual knee/back problems. Meanwhile, my 5'2" partner was very comfortable with our situation.

I know sailors are supposed to be masochists, but full time living aboard takes its toll if the boat is too small.

[Jim Cate]

So, it looks like for typical sailors (not circumnavigators or other long term/range cruisers) typical boat lengths have indeed increased. One must also consider that besides length increments, the internal volume of boats has increased even more than length would indicate. If you look at the beams of boats from the earlier days compared with a modern monohull (monomaran) the difference is huge, like really big!!

The debate about whether this is good or not continues...

Jim