Boat purchase - Broker role and condition report

[Harry-AU]

Hi
I m looking to purchase a crusing boat, I wonder in today’s market (web advertisements and modern digital marketing era) what is the role of a Broker?
I understand that in this forum there may be many Brokers who may feel offended by this question but I am truly looking for the answer. I may be missing something here hence thought to clarify. I am assuming that sites like yachthub and others can list the boats by the owners directly and these sites are accessible all over the world, so what role a broker plays for commission? Do they give any warranties on the boat they sell?

Secondly, how come a seller does not provide the condition report (indep survey by surveyor accountable for their survey) as a part of selling process. I understand that survey can be resasonable old by the time boat is sold atleast it will be worth putting efforts into and doing buyer’s inspections and flights etc. The reason I asked is a friend’s friend wasted time and money visting boats which were either damaged insurance claimed - written offs or high value repair cost while called “bargains” on the ads without any mention of shortfalls.

[chall]

Harry I share your friend's and your frustration, however I believe there is still and always will be a place for a GOOD broker.

When I bought my last boat the broker was invaluable in negotiating and helping the owner understand the current market value of his boat. I would of walked away a couple of times if the broker had not used objective quotes and figures to help the PO and I reach agreement especially after survey.

Likewise at the moment I am looking at boats in the Med and as an Aussie attempting to achieve this I am thankful for the couple of good brokers I have been dealing with that have been able to save me a lot of time and money so far.

When it does come time to exchange, because I am buying a foreign flagged vessel on the other side of the world in EURO and seeking to have it Australian registered a GOOD broker with the appropriate bank account setups and understanding of the paperwork involved is very important to me at transaction time.

Having said that I agree that my experiences with brokers have been mixed. Dare I say, especially in Australia. Several seem completely disinterested in actually selling boats or seem to expect that you will just fall into their office with a large cheque book, swoon at the smell of teak oil and buy the first boat they show you.

I am the annoying kind of buyer that is thorough to a fault, asks lots of questions and I don't like sales pitches and hyperbole.

My advice..... if I am interested in a boat I immediately send an email asking for more photos ask bunch of questions and ask for a recent survey(as a lot of boats would have them for insurance purposes).

It's 2018 everyone has a camera in their phone and I'm sorry but 4 grainy photos to sell a 200K boat doesn't do it for me.

25% of brokers will never get back to you.
25% Will send you something like ' I am busy sailing mate, if you are really interested you can call me next Tuesday'.
25% will send you a PDF with the same 4 photos as the listing.

The last 25% will send you a link to a bunch of photos, will give you an real understanding of the condition of the boat, will chase the owner for answers to you questions and will happily provide a survey if they have one. Deal with these guys. They will save you money and help you buy the right boat.

[Harry-AU]

Thanks Craig for your valuable input and advice. I sent you PM from your blog contact page.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Harry-AU

Secondly, how come a seller does not provide the condition report (indep survey by surveyor accountable for their survey) as a part of selling process. I understand that survey can be resasonable old by the time boat is sold atleast it will be worth putting efforts into and doing buyer’s inspections and flights etc.

A "survey" written by somebody hired by the seller... borders on useless for a purchase decision.

-Chris

[chall]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

A "survey" written by somebody hired by the seller... borders on useless for a purchase decision.

-Chris

Would certainly suggest always getting your own survey, and you are correct a survey done for insurance reasons for an owner is very different in scope and bias than a pre purchase survey done by a surveyor of your choosing.

I still feel that surveyors have reputations to uphold and don't like being sued by insurance companies. There is something to be gleaned by an owner provided, for insurance, survey taken with suitably large grain of salt.

In my case it once saved me the cost of flights and time to inspect a vessel that I decided wasn't worth pursuing further.

[john61ct]

The Broker is there for the convenience of the seller, shield them from the work, bother and risk of dealing with the hoi polloi directly.

May even be able to get a better price for the boat as well.

A Survey put out by the Seller's team would be suspect, I'd prefer to pay my own guy, definitely need to do the due diligence required to find a good surveyor who is available near the boat's location.

Besides the logical reasons, "that's just the way it's done".

[Blaine]

Hi Harry, I've been represented by an outstanding broker (https://www.yachtworld.com/yachtsour...tsource_0.html) in both buying and selling and here's what they bring to the table. First, selling. I'm not familiar with "Yacht Hub", but Yachtworld.com will only accept listings from brokers. If you are being represented on the sell side of a transaction, a good broker will prepare a professional listing with attractive photos and enticing copy. They will also make suggestions re: any repairs or upgrades that will help you get top dollar. They will advertise for you, screen callers for financial qualifications, show the boat, join you on a sea trial and help negotiate any items that come up in a survey. If you were going to try and sell the boat yourself too, most brokers would decline to take your listing as they would be competing against you.

On the buy side, working with a broker is free, since the seller pays the commission. Here are the things that Bob Sherman did for me when I purchased a boat out of state. First, he found a qualified local surveyor and asked him to stop by the boat and do a "pre-survey" -- take some pictures for us and give us his overall opinion of the boat's condition. If memory serves, this cost about a hundred bucks and was far cheaper than airfare. At this point, at least we had an idea of what we were dealing with. When I decided to move forward with the purchase, Bob arranged for a mechanical survey, again without our needing to be there. (This was a powerboat with twin engines and a genset, so a mechanical survey was warranted.) The mechanical survey came back good, so we bought plane tickets.

The boat was very rough and Bob arranged for a survey and helped negotiate the price down based on items that came up. He also joined me on the sea trial. Not bad for free...

No reputable broker would offer you a survey commissioned by the seller. This is a conflict of interest. Always get your own survey done. (and find your own surveyor, not one recommended by the seller) No used boat will come with a warranty, but again, a good broker will go to bat for you if a problem was misrepresented or overlooked.

Good luck and happy hunting!

[hellosailor]

Harry-
Let's suppose that you were going to a whorehouse. Ergh, wait, let's suppose you were going to a bar to pick up women.
Would you take the word of a stranger that, sure, they had no infectious diseases and sure, they were using birth control, and sure, they weren't going to steal your watch and wallet and car keys after you fell asleep?
This is why we do not ask, or rely on, the seller or broker to say anything about the boat's condition. And as a matter of liability, since the broker can't trust the seller either, they don't say anything either.
So you hire a surveyor and if the seller is honest enough, and smart enough, to provide all the information they have on the boat (last survey, repair bills, or at least a write-up saying "It probably needs xyz" all the better.

The broker's job? Is to spend countless hours MARKETING the boat, then waste countless more hours listening to phone call and emails and tirekickers who want to know if the boat comes with a stereo. And then spend more time tapdancing on the companionway steps while they peek and prod in the boat.

All jobs that most sellers could certainly do for themselves, if they were heavily sedated and had no other job or family obligations and could hang out at the boat all day every day.

Which is not to say there aren't worthless brokers, there are far too many of them. But the good ones put in many hours and do many things. Some of them even get a firehose and CLEAN OUT the boat, then take a set of nice fresh pictures of it. They earn their cut.

[john61ct]

I am sure it would not have been hard to find a less offensive example?

And, with most relationships these days starting as Grindr / Tinder etc hookups, perhaps another example would actually work better for making your point.

[Paul L]

A presale survey presented to a potential buyer is just additional info about the boat. It says that the seller is presenting the boat to be in the condition the listing says and the survey says. I've made offers based on this info when the boat was too remote for me to want travel to inspect prior to knowing I could purchase for a price that was acceptable to me.
After we agreed on a price I inspected the boat and renegotiated based on the selling brokers misrepresentation. Then got my own survey.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Harry-
Let's suppose that you were going to a whorehouse. Ergh, wait, let's suppose you were going to a bar to pick up women.
Would you take the word of a stranger that, sure, they had no infectious diseases and sure, they were using birth control, and sure, they weren't going to steal your watch and wallet and car keys after you fell asleep?
This is why we do not ask, or rely on, the seller or broker to say anything about the boat's condition. And as a matter of liability, since the broker can't trust the seller either, they don't say anything either.
So you hire a surveyor and if the seller is honest enough, and smart enough, to provide all the information they have on the boat (last survey, repair bills, or at least a write-up saying "It probably needs xyz" all the better.

The broker's job? Is to spend countless hours MARKETING the boat, then waste countless more hours listening to phone call and emails and tirekickers who want to know if the boat comes with a stereo. And then spend more time tapdancing on the companionway steps while they peek and prod in the boat.

All jobs that most sellers could certainly do for themselves, if they were heavily sedated and had no other job or family obligations and could hang out at the boat all day every day.

Which is not to say there aren't worthless brokers, there are far too many of them. But the good ones put in many hours and do many things. Some of them even get a firehose and CLEAN OUT the boat, then take a set of nice fresh pictures of it. They earn their cut.

Thanks, I loved the paradox. Best chuckle in a long time.

[Dooglas]

I have had sellers/brokers share old surveys or insurance surveys with me in the earlier stages of gathering information about a boat. It is certainly another piece of useful information, but should never take the place of a current survey by your own surveyor at the time you are negotiating the final purchase offer.

[Shrew]

A broker serves a few critical roles.

1) The broker shields you from yourself. A Buyer will be potentially nitpicking your boat, your taste, your choices, your work. That, along with low ball offers put the buyer on the defensive. Believe it or not, the highest variable in sinking a deal is often the seller.

2) Brokers will typically show a boat 7 days a week. I work for a living and don't have time on a Tue. afternoon for boat tours or surveys.

3) The broker is a professional salesperson. They can get a buyer to 'YES' alot better than most of us can.

4) Brokers are set-up to act as a 3rd party for escrowing money, and processing contracts.

[hellosailor]

Cadence-
Thanks. You can explain to John why I didn't say "political candidate" "peanut farmer" "Nook-lee-ergh engineer" "failed grade b actor" or "used car salesman".
Apparently he thinks there's something wrong with whores. One of the world's oldest professions, usually heartedly embraced by merchant sailors in every port.
You can't please everyone, huh?

[Lepke]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I am sure it would not have been hard to find a less offensive example?

And, with most relationships these days starting as Grindr / Tinder etc hookups, perhaps another example would actually work better for making your point.

Didn't offend me, but then, I'm a sailor.