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Roniszoro · 17-08-2023, 04:59

I am now boatless after having just sold my boat, a Tartan 3700. Before that I owned a Wauquiez Pretorian 35. Both boats, owned for 25+ years, went to weather very, very effectively. In fact, I could get close enough to the wind to be able to drop and fold up the main while still sailing to weather. I'd then sail down my channel (wind behind me 90% of the time) to my mooring under jib alone.

I am looking at a new (for me) larger boat that ticks a lot of the boxes, a Shannon 43, BUT the jib/genoa track is on the rail at the hull/deck joint. There is no other track. Am I wrong in assuming that by definition/design this boat won't point in the way my previous boats did or even go to weather all that well? I don't want to run down the purchase road, including all the survey expenses, only to be disappointed with sailing portion of the sea trail.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts & input.

rslifkin · 17-08-2023, 05:20

Looking at the keels under each boat, combined with the wider sheeting angles on the Shannon, it likely won't point quite as high. That said, I wouldn't expect it to sail badly when you're near the limit of pointing, you just won't be quite as close winded.

JimsCAL · 17-08-2023, 05:26

I think you are correct. A Shannon 43 will not go to weather like the two other boats you have had. Perhaps someone who owns one or has experience with one will chime in. But if upwind performance is important to you, I would look elsewhere. Or just deal with that and enjoy the other things that you like about the boat.

Bill O · 17-08-2023, 06:42

To the OP,
Which 43 are you looking at?
From Shannon, there are a couple of different sail plans as well as fixed keel or cb version. https://www.shannonyachts.com/shannon43_specs.html

Most of these are designed as cutter and will point up very well.

Snore · 17-08-2023, 07:16

Another way to look at it is using a barber haul. On my Tartan 33, when AWA was >90, she really wanted a snatch block to open the jib and get the hook out. That one little changes was good for almost 1/3 a knot.

If you want the Shannon, perhaps rigging a way to pull the jib sheet in?

Cheechako · 17-08-2023, 08:01

IIRC the Shannon is a very heavy boat also. I seriously doubt it will go to weather anything like your previous boats.

**Don C L** · 17-08-2023, 10:28

If the boat is not a fairly high performance design, just pulling in the jib won't necessarily gain better performance to windward. You may just create more heel/leeway/drag and less drive. Still, I haven't seen a Shannon 43 so I don't know for sure if it will benefit. This is a ketch though, right? Shallow draft? Ketches have a reputation for not pointing as high as a similar hull design with a sloop rig.

edit, ok I saw the link above. It looks like you can order different rigs with different hulls? For better upwind performance I'd order the deep fixed keel and the sloop rig.

Snore · 17-08-2023, 10:44

@don C L. I respectfully suggest you may need a refresher in how barber hauler's work. This is EXACTLY when one could use the barber hauler to pull the clew towards mid-ships. It is what I do on boats, even cats- if I need to get closer to the wind.

Please see the following for good video explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9ZLF4d_NNw

**Don C L** · 17-08-2023, 11:02

Well I wasn't debating the virtues of a barber hauler. I am just saying that hauling in a jib too tightly on a rig and hull that cannot take advantage of it won't yield any upwind benefit. Yes, the jib is no longer luffing, but is it driving the boat? Is it depowering the main? The boat and rig in the video looks like it can benefit from getting the jib clew in closer, but how many cruising boats are there like that? Well, actually, now that I think about it probably a lot these days. But on a Shannon 43? Well maybe. But in the video the guy is on a, what Beneteau 34? I couldn't tell. And in 6 knots of wind? And he went from going 2.2 kts to 1.1 kts! I'd prefer to see it shown on a heavier boat and a little more wind and a little more swell.

**JPA Cate** · 17-08-2023, 13:57

Ronizoro, if what you're really looking for is a boat that will see you out, maybe even another 20 yrs. or so, be advised that we don't get stronger, faster, more nimble as we age, but we can keep strength to do what we want for quite a while. Trading up now, to a boat with more winching loads will not be kind to ageing shoulders. If the Shannon exemplifies your heart's desire, boatwise, accept that it won't be so close winded as the Waukiez nor the Tartan. One's requirements do change, over time. Most people in FL seem to require fairly shallow draft boats, and that, too, will not favor windward performance.

You seem to want to trade up in size, but one thing you could consider would be downsizing, for easier management, lower loads, and lesser draft. For instance, would a Catalina 30 suit your plans? If you're thinking more comfort, is there something in the 30-36 foot range that can sail close hauled well that would get you what you want? If you get the Shannon, what would your plans for its use be? [If you're looking at the ketch, I'd have to comment that we've seen a lot of ketches where the people never seem to use the mizzen mast. I really don't know why. Nice boats for reaching, but most boats do well then..]

Jim & I had a Yankee 30, and with a little foam blown in, he stiffened the hull according to S&S instructions; and iirc drew 5 ft. We sailed it from SF Bay to HI and return in our younger days. If you're planning to go across oceans, you might find it wanting, because it sails with about 15 deg. of heel all the time. But it was fit for purpose, a good all-round boat, good in light airs, competent enough for a number of sailing trips from SF to So Cal and return. Jim bought a 36 footer for our first joint cruising boat, that was stiffer.

Good luck with your search, and whatever you finally decide on, may she bring you much pleasure.

Ann

Roniszoro · 23-08-2023, 05:58

Thank you all for your valuable input.

I will explore the barber hauler concept, as I am not familiar with it as with my previous boats there was no need to be. As to getting older as we sail, this potential purchase would be a gift to myself for my 80th birthday. I am frequently a single-hander and often on longer passages, at least longer for me, so the Shannon 43 is well set up for that. The "going to weather" is really the only issue I have with the boat, and perhaps I just need to"get over it" and enjoy all of the other benefits of the vessel.

SailingHarmonie · 23-08-2023, 06:22

Decreasing the sheeting angle (like with a barber hauler) CAN make a boat go to weather better. It can also be totally counter productive.

For the reason why, you just have to look UNDER the water. Keels that are shallower, and thicker (like many cruising boats, including a Shannon 43) tend to stall if they are pointed too high. Hauling the clew of the genoa in for a nice tight angle looks like its working. Everything up on deck looks great! The sails are pulling, air flows are smooth across the sail! The apparent wind angle is higher than ever seen before! Unfortunately, the water flow across the keel has stalled, it is generating almost no lift, and the boat is just sliding sideways, making so much leeway that it VMG is WORCE than before the change in sheeting angle.

Sometimes there can be a huge difference between making a boat look good pointing into the wind when it is not actually going into the wind.

On a well designed boat, it is a bit unusual that changing one thing makes a huge improvement in performance. Of course heaven knows there are a lot of badly designed boats out there. I think everybody can agree that there is a sheeting angle that is too tight, and things stop working. This is different for every boat with sails, rig, and hull shape making it so. So it is a little silly to suggest that every boat can always benefit from a tighter sheeting angle than the designer built in. Sometimes yes... sometimes no.

I would also point out, for people interested in the best pointing boats they can get, out on the open ocean, almost every boat can point higher than its crew ever will want to...

Sturgesvt · 26-08-2023, 15:58

We have a Shannon 43, shoal draft with CB. Great boat. We found the biggest factor going up wind is the cut and shape of the head sail. We purchased a new 135 and the performance changed dramatically. 35 deg apparent gives us good performance, if power is needed for heavier seas, 40 deg will give you 7 kts boat speed in 15-18 kts apparent. CB down gives 5 deg better tracking. Great boat. Been sailing for the last 10 years. If you would like to talk, I would be happy to share our knowledge.

Sturgesvt · 26-08-2023, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roniszoro

Thank you all for your valuable input.

I will explore the barber hauler concept, as I am not familiar with it as with my previous boats there was no need to be. As to getting older as we sail, this potential purchase would be a gift to myself for my 80th birthday. I am frequently a single-hander and often on longer passages, at least longer for me, so the Shannon 43 is well set up for that. The "going to weather" is really the only issue I have with the boat, and perhaps I just need to"get over it" and enjoy all of the other benefits of the vessel.

I sail my Shannon 43 single handed all the time.