Buy a boat without a survey? or even seeing it?

[TooCoys]

I have bought my last three boats without a survey. However my investments are minimal (only a few thousand), and I always plan to replace the major systems should they not perform and/or break the minute I get it home.

In my case, it was going to be $500 for the survey, $500 for the mechanical survey, $500 to lift it out the water to conduct the surveys, and another $500 to lift it out of the water a second time to put it on the trailer for transport. That was $2000 that could have been better spent making necessary repairs. I opted to go without the survey, and inspect the boat myself. However I noted all my costs to repair any system that may need replacing, redoing the bottom jobs, and even repowering if it came to that.

It's a gamble, and as with any wager, whether you win or lose depends on how informed you are going in. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

[Captsteve53]

Roger, Suggest next time you require a survey have a look at this site where you can select the area and the surveyor with the most experience to suit your application: https://www.iims.org.uk/ There are numerous well qualified surveyors in the US and around the world , JUST go to the search surveyor tab,

Being a member of this society is tough to get and even tougher to stay current which cant be said with some other societies,

Cheers Steve(MIIMS/Lloyd's Maritime)

[Cherod]

I bought , no survey, unseen , many detailed photos and few videos , on proviso that everything was as was advertised , it was . Sailed it home the next day , very happy .

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Cherod

I bought , no survey, unseen , many detailed photos and few videos , on proviso that everything was as was advertised , it was . Sailed it home the next day , very happy .

OK... how many UKP ?
How long was the delivery trip?
Boat details?
Etc...


UKP200,000 on the far side of the world is a bit different to a Mirror dinghy on the far side of the loch....

[CaptainJohn49]

A big problem in a remote location such as the Med is how to find a surveyor. Ask the broker for a list of 5 surveyors and take your pick of one. This will keep the broker from recommending a friend or business associate that may not have your best interest at heart. My first boat was an Islander 36. The broker arranged for the survey and I got a whitewash job. The surveyor said basically that the boat was in fine condition. I did the sea trials and it seemed OK. Signed the papers and handed over the money and had problems from day one. Things that the surveyor should have caught and the owner repaired were overlooked. Example: Day one - as I was backing out of the slip the helm became unresponsive. No rudder. Turns out the cable had slipped off the quadrant. I only got 20 yards before it came off. I was able to get a repairman with a inflatable to push me back into the slip. At sea of course I could have put on the spare tiller but in a fairway there was no time. Turns out the nuts holding the cable to the quadrant had come off.

Get a survey but don't depend on it to go to sea. Sea trials, inspection and a post purchase inspection of the sails, rigging and engine are important.

John

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

Am I crazy to even consider this?. Not an ex charter but a respected blue water cruiser and liveaboard with loads of recent upgrades inc recent engine, new standing rigging, keel bolts, windlass, access to recent survey, cruising history, maintenance records.

Boat is in the Med, we are in North America, cruising season is closing in in the med and we are on a timeline, need to buy the boat and start our adventure.

Hoping for a quick transaction and leveraging an unconditional offer to get a good price.

Thoughts?

One thing I forgot: If you think now its hard / expensive to get to Lefkas, just wait a few months. During wintertime Greece seems to be hibernating, and getting to Lefkas is time consuming and way more expensive.

The airport near Lefkas? Closed! Rental car stations? Closed or reduced working hours! Hotels? Most Closed! Restaurants? Most Closed!

The only way to get To Lefkas then is via Corfu but very few flights in winter and you need to take a ferry and rental car to get to Lefkas.
Or via Thessaloniki / Athens airport and 350-400km by car.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by rabbi

... If you think now its hard / expensive to get to Lefkas, just wait a few months. ...

And the price you can offer should reflect these difficulties (no more than quarter of market value???). No point going to all this trouble unless you are saving a bucket of money, literally. Of course your offer price, sight-unseen (but after lots of up-to-date photos & videos) must be accepted before you leave home. And still it's a gamble!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

And the price you can offer should reflect these difficulties (no more than quarter of market value???). No point going to all this trouble unless you are saving a bucket of money, literally. Of course your offer price, sight-unseen (but after lots of up-to-date photos & videos) must be accepted before you leave home. And still it's a gamble!

Why would any sane seller even consider such an offer? Just because the buyer comes from the other side of the world and has a schedule?
The boat will likely sell for the (local) market value, whatever this is.
A seller who needs money badly may go for a cheap deal on winter time, but certainly not now.

Greece is a very accessible location during summer, so this won't be a reason to negotiate to 1/4 of market value.
Currently there is a ton of flights daily from all major European hubs, and often cheap depending where you are ( Düsseldorf to Preveza / Lefkas costs 40€ for next Saturday). I have previously done a round-trip to Preveza for around 200€ - including getting drunk after seeing the wreck they were trying to sell.
It's just winter when traveling there gets tough.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Why would any sane seller even consider such an offer?

Why would any sane buyer travel half way around the world, unless it was some kind of a deal? Boats sell all the time for a fraction of asking price, which is usually based around market price. People want to find a buyer - no-strings fixed offers are rare and are worth far more than conditional offers, which are ten-a-penny, with many ways to back out or screw down the agreed price.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Why would any sane buyer travel half way around the world, unless it was some kind of a deal?

Fully agree!

However I highly doubt you can find a deal around 1/4 marketprice unless out of season or in a hard-to-reach location (e.g. a country like Gambia, Greece is not).
But you never know...

[calin1967]

I bought two boats from ebay without seeing them. IMHO there is no yes or no answer to your question, it is only arithmetic. A risk is a cost. For example if you buy a second hand untested depth sensor and you CAN estimate that the probability to be defective is 50%, you should consider an offer which is less than 50% of a tested one. This example is simple, a boat is a much complex one. And the most difficult thing is to estimate the risks. So, which are the possibilities?
1. The boat is completely junk. This means that you have a loss of how much you paid (let's say 100) minus how much you can get selling the boat for parts (let's say 50), minus your costs (papers, mooring, time etc.) - let's say 10
2. The boat needs essential repairs. This means that the final cost of the boat will be the initial one (100), plus the repairs (50) plus the opportunity costs (the fact that you will have a functional boat after X months) (20), during which you will have to pay the mooring (10).
3. The boat needs cosmetic repairs. This means that you can use it immediately but you have to plan some repairs in the future (100+20)
4. The boat is just perfect.

The estimation of the risks should take into consideration a lot of subjective facts - speaking with the guy and trying to figure out what type of person is she or she, getting info about the boat history and trying to speak with the former owners, pictures, etc.

For example if you estimate that the probabilities are 20% for option 1./40% for 2./30% for 3./10% for 4, and the estimated price for a boat like that is 200, the math would be:

200 bigger or smaller than 20%x(-100+50+10) + 40%x(100+50+20+10) + 30%x(100+20) + 10%x(100)

[BandB]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Boats sell all the time for a fraction of asking price,

Yes, they sell for what they're worth in the market. Asking price is completely irrelevant to value.

[lesterbutch]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

Am I crazy to even consider this?. Not an ex charter but a respected blue water cruiser and liveaboard with loads of recent upgrades inc recent engine, new standing rigging, keel bolts, windlass, access to recent survey, cruising history, maintenance records.

Boat is in the Med, we are in North America, cruising season is closing in in the med and we are on a timeline, need to buy the boat and start our adventure.

Hoping for a quick transaction and leveraging an unconditional offer to get a good price.

Thoughts?

Having once owned a marina and been a marine surveyor on premises, I can tell you if the boat has a value greater than 5 to 10,000, O.K. Once you get by that NO! It's foolish to buy without a good wet/dry survey which would include a sea trial! Don't risk it!

[Taichungman]

Originally Posted by lesterbutch

Having once owned a marina and been a marine surveyor on premises, I can tell you if the boat has a value greater than 5 to 10,000, O.K. Once you get by that NO! It's foolish to buy without a good wet/dry survey which would include a sea trial! Don't risk it!

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lesterbutch is correct and gives good advice. Also take time and go to
Custom Boat Repairs | DIY Gel Coat Repair - Fiberglass Boat Repair
Tips on buying a boat page will give you some insight on what to look for.
And take it for a sea trial even if the surveyor does not find or see problems.

I bought a boat years ago and had a survey done and it received a good bill of health, so I bought it. A week later I took it out for a sail with the wind around 10-15kts and was puzzled why it was so slow. I later talked to someone who knew the previous owner. Apparently the PO was worried the hulls ( yes it was cat) was not strong enough so he had it laid up with about a inch more of fiberglass to the hulls. It was just so heavy for it's size and rig that it sailed poorly. The seller didn't mention it and the surveyor had no idea. So, do your homework, find a good surveyor and take it for a shakedown.