Buy a boat you've never sailed?

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

I recently sailed with the owner as race crew on a Shipman 63. The most awesome cruising sailboat I’ve ever seen. Luxury accommodations including large watermaker, washer, dishwasher. Beautiful cabin. Flush decks, no cleats, all lines internal, hydraulic halyards and winches. It easily turns light wind into 10 or more boat speed. 15 to 20 in decent wind. This particular vessel was solo sailed Hampton, Va to English Harbor, Antigua last November in 7.5 days.


For a small knock around, I have a Tornado Cat. Fast and fun.

Sounds great, though I'm not clear how is this related to the scope of the discussion??

[CCCruiser]

Originally Posted by WindLove

I am thinking about buying a new boat and it has been a while since I have gone through the process. I just want to know what the norms are now, and whether I am asking too much of the seller.

I do not like the idea of buying a boat that I have never sailed before. I found something I really like and I want to go see it and sail it. It looks great from the description and appears to have everything I want. I asked the listing broker if I could arrange to go for a short sail before committing. He said no, and that I would have to have a boat survey and that I could sail on it when the surveyor puts up the sails etc.

The boat survey is expensive. If I sail on the boat I may not want to go through with a purchase. I even offered to send a refundable deposit but the boat broker said "no way", which I thought was kind of rude. He said I needed to be committed to buying the boat before I could go for a sail.

I would like everyone's honest opinion. Would you commit to buying a boat you have never sailed? I wouldn't buy a car without driving it first.

I bought my first boat, a J/34c based on my evaluation having been aboard them at the Annapolis Boat Show and comparison of other quality boats in the same size range. The purchase was done in February. I boarded the boat under winter cover to make a functional assessment. My offer was accepted and contingencies stipulated in the contract. Since the boat had to be moved to the brokers location I was able to do an entire day of sea trial with the owners. The purchase was done through a very reputable family brokerage firm in Long Island with a 30 year history. Had the boat for 17 years. Wonderful sailboat, fast, stable, and not one blister

For the second sailboat boat I did a "regular way", inspect the boat in FL, negotiation on price, setting of terms and conditions, put up 10%. Then return to FL, survey boat out of water, sea trial with surveyor and broker (who was the sellers broker) on board. The boat failed the survey badly. Delaminated portside deck, most of the clutches were frozen and could not be operated. Fogged up windows (glass laminates), a soft spot in the hull just beyond the aft part of the keel, poor awlgrip condition, a large "smile" crack across the lower back of the transom. The next morning I demanded the broker wire me my deposit and terminated the deal.

Lessons learned: Unless you are very wealthy doing this process on more than one boat at a time is exceptionally difficult. The process deliberately filters out lookers. You should, if at all possible, engage a buyer's broker. You must establish this relationship and let your broker make the calls to the seller's broker. Any contingencies should be in your total discretion to decide. For instance, "Subject to survey and sea trial" gives you walk ability away for any reason. Your broker can really help with tricky issues found in the survey and sea trial process when negotiation is required (like who is responsible for cost of repairs:buyer, seller, or split in some fashion). Also, your broker should advise you on offer strategies. He/she will earn their commission and be your advocate. You are responsible for haul out, and launch, all survey costs and to put the boat back into the same posture. So you can "buy" a boat you haven't sailed before but before the entire transaction closes you can walk away if there are issues. But all of this comes at a price for each boat you reject.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by WindLove

I am thinking about buying a new boat and it has been a while since I have gone through the process. I just want to know what the norms are now, and whether I am asking too much of the seller.

I do not like the idea of buying a boat that I have never sailed before. I found something I really like and I want to go see it and sail it. It looks great from the description and appears to have everything I want. I asked the listing broker if I could arrange to go for a short sail before committing. He said no, and that I would have to have a boat survey and that I could sail on it when the surveyor puts up the sails etc.

The boat survey is expensive. If I sail on the boat I may not want to go through with a purchase. I even offered to send a refundable deposit but the boat broker said "no way", which I thought was kind of rude. He said I needed to be committed to buying the boat before I could go for a sail.

I would like everyone's honest opinion. Would you commit to buying a boat you have never sailed? I wouldn't buy a car without driving it first.

Your best bet would be to find someone with a similar boat already in the water and ready to sail. You might talk them into taking you for a day sail to get a feel for how the boat performs. Getting a broker to agree to a free sail is not going to happen on this planet. As others have said, what you're looking for is a long way short of the standard operating procedure to buy a sail boat. Most boats actively for sail are already on the hard as the first step in any purchase is getting a survey which must take place out of the water so the hull can be inspected along with most of the other systems. To splash a boat so someone can see if they like how it sails is a very expensive proposition especially considering that it's a seller's market at the moment. The sea trial (which is what you want) only takes place after the boat passes the hard survey and is done at the expense of the buyer. If you're serious, you'll have to put your money where your mouth is and make an offer contingent on survey and sea trial. All that you'd be at risk for is the cost of the survey and splash and re haul should the boat fail your inspection. There's an excellent presurvey guide by a member here to help you avoid paying for surveys on boats that you won't want. Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection. Most of this can be checked out when the broker shows you the boat (which he will do)

[WindLove]

Sounds like Shrew's explanation makes sense.

If this were a thing, I'd book a sea trial everywhere I went on vacation to get a nice ride to view the location from the water.

That makes sense since if I can get my deposit back I really have nothing in the game. Oh well, that's what the broker told me - "no way."

And SeaStory says

So, if a separate sea trial is that important to you, then this probably isn't the boat for you.

That's probably true too. I need to find a boat I already know or at least a brand and style that is right for me and within my budget. I really don't want to waste anybody's time.

Thanks everybody. Keep 'em coming.

[KimSails]

As someone said, even if you could schedule the sail, you may not get the sailing conditions to actually test the boat. There may be no wind at all.

A different route, if it is a production boat, is to look for and contact an owners forum or association. You can ask owners about their experiences with the boat, not just sailing characteristics, but construction/ maintenance issues, common upgrades, engine access, etc. You may also find an owner there willing to take you out on their own when they go out.

[DMCantor]

As a side note, I read this week that something like two-thirds of people buying houses recently have never set foot in the house they are buying. If you want something badly enough, you are willing to take risks to get it.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Sounds great, though I'm not clear how is this related to the scope of the discussion??

My bad. Thought it said ‘ever’. Shipman is awesome,

[Hoodsail]

I had my last boat, Catalina 27, for sale by owner, for months...lowered the price, lowered the price...finally had a few people look a her...no offers...then had a womna and her teen-age son down to look at the boat..met them a the harbor, where they asked to go sailing as part of their evaluation. We went out for an hour. Tied up, attempted to get an offer from her, she said she would call me the next day with one....never happened...i called her a few times over the next week...no response...Finally sold the boat to a guy, no survey, and we motor-sailed to his slip about 1/2 day away so i could orient him to the boat.

Bought my current boat without ever sailing her or any other Bristol, but my research told me most of what i needed to know. Still good x 5.5 yrs..Enjoy your hunt.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by WindLove

I do not like the idea of buying a boat that I have never sailed before. I found something I really like and I want to go see it and sail it.

Sea Trials - It ain't just another boat ride

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by WindLove

I found something I really like and I want to go see it and sail it. It looks great from the description and appears to have everything I want.

Are you able to contact the owner without going through the broker? You need to show that you are serious so offer to charter the yacht for 1/2 a day from the owner directly with a cash offer. Would $120 be about right perhaps. So no commitments from either side, you get to sail her and he makes a bit for his time and has the opportunity to promote his yacht for sale before you consider others.

This isn't a sea trial, its a test to see if you like that make and model of yacht.

Pete

[boatman61]

Many times.. my first boat which needed
putting back together big time.
A Corribee 21, a Hurley 22, a Hunter 37c, a Bene 331 to name a few others..all of which I either did solo Transat's with or solo'd down from the UK to Portugal.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Are you able to contact the owner without going through the broker? You need to show that you are serious so offer to charter the yacht for 1/2 a day from the owner directly with a cash offer. Would $120 be about right perhaps. So no commitments from either side, you get to sail her and he makes a bit for his time and has the opportunity to promote his yacht for sale before you consider others.

This isn't a sea trial, its a test to see if you like that make and model of yacht.

Pete

That would void the owners insurance

[siamese]

I just sold my Catalina 28 without a broker. Got a good price, and let me tell you, I earned every cent of the brokerage fee that I saved. I've done this on a few boats, and therefore can see things from they eyes of a broker.

Any broker that agrees to allowing people to sail a boat with no skin in the game
is setting themselves up for a lot of wasted time.

Run an ad for a boat, and stand by for a lot of calls from total lunatics. Stand firm on accepted procedures.

[Manateeman]

I only bought one boat through a broker and that was a dinghy. And that experience was a horror show.
Do you want to say on the forum..what boat...or send me a pm ? Is there something very unique about the boat or the deal?
If I were selling, I’d think it’s reasonable to be paid for a sail.
I didn’t understand the void insurance post, but he’s a surveyor I think is very good...I think there is an exemption to passenger for hire...I’d have to check.
All this signing of agreements, deposits, sea trial...is this a million dollar yacht?
Your question is simple. Is a sail necessary for a sale.
If I were doing the survey or trusted the surveyor and knew the boat and it was a good deal, I’d do it no sail. Really knew what I was looking at. Was willing to do it and face the consequences if I misjudged.
If the little voice inside you tell you the broker or the seller is trying to hoodwink you...well you should trust your gut feelings.
Here is a story about sea trials. A friend did a sea trial in which the boat returned needing over $ 10,000 in repairs. The prospective buyer was thrilled with the way the boat took a full storm. You never can tell .
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his crew who say...”You are not a manatee so don’t let them run you over !”

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by DMCantor

As a side note, I read this week that something like two-thirds of people buying houses recently have never set foot in the house they are buying. If you want something badly enough, you are willing to take risks to get it.

Yep I just bought two houses site unseen. Technically, I had friends view the houses for me. Also, I didn't close on the first house. The first one fell through when an undisclosed lien appeared and the balance due on the house was higher than the sell price.

The second one I only walked into during the walk through, 1 hr before the closing.

Prior to that, every house I would call on, was under contract. Houses were getting listed and going under contract in hours. That is what happens when you try to buy a house 1,000 miles away.