Buy a boat you've never sailed?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

That would void the owners insurance

Possibly, but in the Free State (England) we are allowed to collect funds towards the running costs from those participating.

Also what would the OP care?

[jim King]

I would want to know how it sails before putting the money out for a survey. the idea of finding a similar boat to try out is good but it may take a lot of searching to find the similar boat as well as an owner who will take you out. I would opt to agree on a purchase price and put up a down payment based on both the sea trial as well as survey. If you find fault in the survey I'd ask for a refund on the down payment and not proceed with the survey. Often the survey will turn up needed repairs which can also impact the final purchase price as well as a refund of the down payment. I wouldn't consider buying a boat that I hadn't taken on a sea trial. If you need more expertise in the sea trial. find a good friend or other expert sailor who can join in you in taking the boat through her paces.

[patswil]

I went through survey on 3 boats before I actually bought a boat. You can always cancel after a sea trial. You do NOT have to buy the boat..those are the rules..Period

Originally Posted by WindLove

I am thinking about buying a new boat and it has been a while since I have gone through the process. I just want to know what the norms are now, and whether I am asking too much of the seller.

I do not like the idea of buying a boat that I have never sailed before. I found something I really like and I want to go see it and sail it. It looks great from the description and appears to have everything I want. I asked the listing broker if I could arrange to go for a short sail before committing. He said no, and that I would have to have a boat survey and that I could sail on it when the surveyor puts up the sails etc.

The boat survey is expensive. If I sail on the boat I may not want to go through with a purchase. I even offered to send a refundable deposit but the boat broker said "no way", which I thought was kind of rude. He said I needed to be committed to buying the boat before I could go for a sail.

I would like everyone's honest opinion. Would you commit to buying a boat you have never sailed? I wouldn't buy a car without driving it first.

[JPA Cate]

It might vary with where one lives, but when Jim was selling his Yankee 30, the buyers wanted a test sail, and it was separate from the rest of the survey and details.

How he arranged it was to demand a deposit, non-refundable, and we took the buyers for a half day sail, flew all the sails, etc. However, this was on SF Bay, and the winds are pretty reliable....and a price was agreed upon beforehand.

Perhaps with boats for sale by owner it is an easier thing, to arrange a test sail. The owner can look at it as a good-bye sail to a boat that s/he has enjoyed, sort of closure with the boat.

I really can see only nuisance to the selling broker to insist upon it. If the OP is concerned about the boat's performance somehow being under par, take a look at club racing results for the boat and model. If it is consistently beaten by smaller boats, it's not a sparkling performer...or has a dreadful skipper. Look at more clubs results, and also sailboat data has ratings that will tell the OP what to expect.

If the boat in question is a one-off, then a sail should be included at some point, but I would not expect people to be anxious to spend their time doing it unless the OP had shown a serious interest.

Ann

[sail sfbay]

WindLove........what boat manufacturer, model, year, length and price are you planning to purchase and sailing objective like cruising, racing and liveaboard? Suggest reading reviews about the sailboat and discussing its attributes with forum and sailboat yacht club friends to gain opinions on whether this boat is for you before you sign the purchase agreement, which is contingent on a sea trial, survey and any other conditions, like getting financing, insurance, etc.

[more]

Originally Posted by Pete7

You need to show that you are serious so offer to charter the yacht for 1/2 a day from the owner directly with a cash offer. Would $120 be about right perhaps.
Pete

you joke $120 for 1/2 day. in USA any service company charges you 150$ hour.
in Croatia skipper is day salary 140-200€ day in Italy around 300+€ day
But fair price is for 40 ft boat 10-20 year old 300-400€
45-50 ft 400-600€
but also everything depend on price of used boat not same 10000$ boat vs 1 mil$

[dfelsent]

My current boat (and I am still in love 6 years later) was the usual inspection, negotiation, survey, sea trial, and closing. The delivery home.
The boat was on the hard for the winter and the survey. The owner coordinated spring commissioning to coincide with the survey and sea trial. That was very kind.
During the sea trial the water was glassy. In Scotland. In April. No sailing. But I had helped with the commissioning so we didn’t hoist the sails for that.
The surveyor, aboard for the trial, walked the owner through full throttle and steering exercises. All while observing and measuring temperatures.
The owner showed me some more about handling the boat.
The owner was an industry professional, retired broker and yard manager, and well respected.
My surveyor was someone I had worked with before and was at the top of his field.
The whole episode was low anxiety. Lucky me.
I did have the good fortune to be able to talk with others who had sailed on Moonbeam in the past. That helped too.

There is a global sailing community and if you are fortunate you can tap into it to make your life easier.

[Jim Cate]

It might vary with where one lives, but when Jim was selling his Yankee 30, the buyers wanted a test sail, and it was separate from the rest of the survey and details.

How he arranged it was to demand a deposit, non-refundable, and we took the buyers for a half day sail, flew all the sails, etc. However, this was on SF Bay, and the winds are pretty reliable....and a price was agreed upon beforehand.

to flesh this out a bit...

The buyer and his "expert" pal had already spent a half day or so on board inspecting things. They wanted a test sail... so I said I'd do it if they posted a significant deposit that would be refunded if they bought the boat, and I'd keep it if they did not. It was ~2.5 % of the price. At that time I was sailing every weekend anyway, and didn't see any added cost to me. They thought this fair, and as Ann said, we really gave them a demonstration, including spinnaker runs, beats to windward in the slot and a gentle drift in the lee of Angel Island for lunch.

They bought the boat at the asking price, after Jimmy Jessie, a very hard nosed surveyor, gave her a good report.

Was it worth it? I thought so, others might not have agreed... but it is a means of getting around the issues that the OP is facing. All it takes is a motivated seller.

Jim

[WindLove]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sea Trials - It ain't just another boat ride

Thanks boatpoker... That makes sense. Have a sea trial after the survey.

[more]

Originally Posted by WindLove

Thanks boatpoker... That makes sense. Have a sea trial after the survey.

how much valid 1 your working day, xx hire you to make 1-day break from jor job and work on boat .

why you want a sail trial.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by WindLove

I do not like the idea of buying a boat that I have never sailed before. I found something I really like and I want to go see it and sail it. It looks great from the description and appears to have everything I want. I asked the listing broker if I could arrange to go for a short sail before committing. He said no, and that I would have to have a boat survey and that I could sail on it when the surveyor puts up the sails etc.

The boat survey is expensive. If I sail on the boat I may not want to go through with a purchase. I even offered to send a refundable deposit but the boat broker said "no way", which I thought was kind of rude. He said I needed to be committed to buying the boat before I could go for a sail.

I don't disagree that in theory you would like to be able to sail the boat before you purchase it. I don't like the boat brokers attitude that you can't get your deposit back. This isn't the norm and would be a red flag. I'll assume this is the seller's broker and not yours. If you are dealing w/brokers you probably want a buyers broker to deal w/the potential bully brokers.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Are you able to contact the owner without going through the broker? You need to show that you are serious so offer to charter the yacht for 1/2 a day from the owner directly with a cash offer. Would $120 be about right perhaps. So no commitments from either side, you get to sail her and he makes a bit for his time and has the opportunity to promote his yacht for sale before you consider others.

Pete's idea is great and works if the boat is in the water. This would be the only way to get enough time to see how it sails and get tidbits from the owner. Sometimes this isn't possible if the boat has been up on the hard for a while. Also if in the water and the owner is reluctant, would carefully look at the boat as it probably needs a great deal of work and is in disrepair.

While you do want a sea trial (w/your surveyor) to make certain everything is functional, the sea trial IMO isn't really enough time to see how well it sails. On the sea trials I've been on, you do get a little sailing in, but the majority is w/the surveyor, brokers and your self onboard checking all the systems. After that its back in because time is money for the surveyors/brokers and they want to close the deal.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Possibly, but in the Free State (England) we are allowed to collect funds towards the running costs from those participating.



Also what would the OP care?

The owner of course must be present on the boat and remain in charge. Being compensated for out of pocket expenses is entirely acceptable. Simply “ charging “ some one to sail is commercial activity even in that not so free state you mention

In my experience if the owner thinks you are serious he or she “ may “ consider taking you for a spin ,it all depends. Generally unless the boat is unusual you will be familiar with the basic sail arrangements anyway. I’m not sure what you’d actually get for a test sail.

[Zzmeyer]

The biggest impediment to buying or selling a boat is agreeing on the price. You are wasting your time and his by doing anything first. As many have said get an agreement. I’ve never seen an agreement that isn’t contingent on a sea trial and survey. A survey is important to determining whether you want the boat and in many cases leads to a price adjustment. I’ve heard of few people who have walked from a deal after a sea trial. You will spend a couple hours sailing is all.

[Wolfgang.Schau]

You don't want to drive a car without a test drive, why buying a boat for probably 10-times the money? NEVER.

It is easy to make everything looking beautiful on pictures or even videos. Reality is different.

I once test sailed a 4 years old catamaran. The furniture was making screechy noise at every wake. Nobody could sleep while sailing.

I test sailed a Bavaria and every gust caused cavitation of the ruder losing traction, no no no.

Every serious seller will invite you for a test sail, unless he has to hide something.

[gonesail]

the sea trials I have experienced are not the same as sailing. Usually you go out under power with the owner at the helm .. and raise the sails. There may or may not be any wind .. you could get lucky. Surveyors seem to be more interested in engine performance and hauling the boat to check the hull IMHO.