Buying boat based on survey value?

[TrentePieds]

Rockinar:

Me: "I'd like to be able to insure the boat for $XX,XXX.-"

Surveyor: "Sure - no prob!"

Insurance agent: "Thanx for the survey. We'll up the hull value"

I'm not being cynical at all. Just aware of how the world works.

So there you are, Rockinar :-) Do be aware of the difference between "value in use" ("utility" to those who've ODed on Economics) and "value in trade" ("selling price" or "acquisition cost" depending on which end of the deal is yours).

It's your job as buyer to know where to pitch your offer. You are right to be seeking advice if you are not au courant with the market. Expect to bid on many boats before you get to writing a cheque. Start your bidding at 40% of "listing price", and modify your pitch once you glean some market knowledge.

TrentePieds

[boatpoker]

True Story - 2 months ago a nice looking Tanzer 26 pulled into our marina in Trenton, Ontario. The fella with zero experience headed out from Toronto to Trenton. He got the crap beat out of him on Lke Ontario.

So he pulls into Trenton and says "I've had enough" anybody want this thing for $500 ?" A dock neighbour checked his wallet and jokingly said "How about $300".

My dock neigbour got about a $7,000Cdn. boat for $300.

[Greg Mason]

Jeez, I just had a survey done and the boat wasn't listed, insurance required it. I was given a market value and a replacement value, but never asked about any number. The insurance underwriter only asked that an acceptable accredited surveyor provide the survey. This leaves out my brother-in-law. The guy did happen to be a Captain.

[boatpoker]

Ok got one more for ya on my website ...

How much is she worth, boat values, a crap shoot

[Wallaby]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

How to Become a Marine Surveyor

So, as I suggested above, there are NO established standards, and hairdressers are actually more qualified.



From boatpoker's reference, there is this:


"you can purchase a manual with an exam on the back page and after you transfer the answers from the text to the exam page you can call yourself a Certified Accredited Master Marine Surveyor." (emphasis mine)

[YachtBroker]

What is the boat in question and where is it? That depends upon what it's worth more than anything. Especially in this market. Some boats are selling well above asking and above surveyor market values. Some boats are selling well below.

Most good surveyors do have access to sold boat data from Yachtworld.com like brokers do. They should evaluate the market value based on THE MARKET (which is very strong right now) and also the condition of the boat. Surveyors using NADA or BUC for sailboat values are just not correct. NADA works for some power boats and that's it. No brokers I know of have used BUC in 20+ years. It's outdated but somehow they keep selling the books to banks.

[jim King]

Often the surveyor has knowledge of the boats asking price and simply uses this for value. This has been the case in two surveys I have had. If you want a better estimate of value you can go on line and see all those similar boats for sale and compare the asking price. The survey can give you good idea of the condition of the boat you are buying for comparison.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Rockinar:

Me: "I'd like to be able to insure the boat for $XX,XXX.-"

Surveyor: "Sure - no prob!"

Insurance agent: "Thanx for the survey. We'll up the hull value"

I'm not being cynical at all. Just aware of how the world works.

So there you are, Rockinar :-) Do be aware of the difference between "value in use" ("utility" to those who've ODed on Economics) and "value in trade" ("selling price" or "acquisition cost" depending on which end of the deal is yours).

It's your job as buyer to know where to pitch your offer. You are right to be seeking advice if you are not au courant with the market. Expect to bid on many boats before you get to writing a cheque. Start your bidding at 40% of "listing price", and modify your pitch once you glean some market knowledge.

TrentePieds

Do not expect to get anywhere with lowballing at 40%

Survey the market. Zone in on the model you believe suits you and your budget .

Build some knowledge of prices.

Offer around 10% below your market value ( in the current sellers market ) determination , subject to survey and sail trial.

Expect to get further discounts after survey

Don’t low ball, most sellers just think you’re a tyre kicker and ignore you or actively get annoyed. The boat will be worth its market value.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Don’t low ball, most sellers just think you’re a tire kicker and ignore you or actively get annoyed. The boat will be worth its market value.

I agree. Folks that come in with low ball “offers” are a nuisance. Generally, not even worth replying to. An exception might be for boats put up as “OBO” or make offer. Kidding—40%? I often get this kind of BS when posting stuff for sale on Craig’s list. If I reply at all I just say no, go away.

I remember a friend getting a couple of low-ball offers on a nice Morgan 44 in FL from the same buyer where the broker, actually a well-known person in the area, told him that he needed to look for (make offers on) a boat that he could afford. That was funny! Same thing: “Go away.”

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Auklet

I agree. Folks that come in with low ball “offers” are a nuisance. Generally, not even worth replying to. An exception might be for boats put up as “OBO” or make offer. Kidding—40%? I often get this kind of BS when posting stuff for sale on Craig’s list. If I reply at all I just say no, go away.

I remember a friend getting a couple of low-ball offers from the same buyer where the broker, actually a well-know person in the area, told him that he needed to look for a (make offers on) boat that he could afford. That was funny!

I had good luck starting at 40% off myself. They wont take it serious unless you give a deposit check with it though. Tire kickers dont give checks.
If the seller comes back at 5% off you know it will be a tough one.
If the seller comes back at 15%+ off, you can negotiate a deal.

I had a clean and loaded Hans Christian 38 for sale in Florida. We listed it at $135k like the only other two in the US. I had an offer of $95k fairly quickly and turned it down.
guess what? 1.5 years later I finally sold it for $90k. .........36% below listing price.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I had good luck starting at 40% off myself. They wont take it serious unless you give a deposit check with it though. Tire kickers dont give checks.
If the seller comes back at 5% off you know it will be a tough one.
If the seller comes back at 15%+ off, you can negotiate a deal.

I had a clean and loaded Hans Christian 38 for sale in Florida. We listed it at $135k like the only other two in the US. I had an offer of $95k fairly quickly and turned it down.
guess what? 1.5 years later I finally sold it for $90k. .........36% below listing price.

Yeah. I’ve seen that happen as well. The early offers probably come from folks who want (motivated) to buy. However, 70% of asking price is not 40%; far from it. I would try to work with that offer to get it up some if I really wished to sell the boat. Also, 36% below asking is not the same $$ number as 36% of asking, as I’m sure you know. The fellow I quoted (#16) was recommending 40% of asking; not 40% off, or below, asking. Perhaps he misstated.

[canyonbat]

The survey for the last boat we purchased included a fairly thorough valuation based upon a list of comps from soldboats.com, a list of boats currently for sale, with asking price and a valuation from BUC Valuation Pro, a subscription valuation service. It was a little more than what we had already agreed to pay for the boat so the bank and the insurance companies were both happy.

[rpjn59]

Also not all surveys are equal. I have seen many where limited access was available to different systems simply because the the vessel was either 'in the water' or 'out of the water'. Keep that in mind. Personally i wouldn't take a survey number seriously unless it was both sea trialed and removed from the water for inspection. Everything else is a bit of gamesmanship, imho. Good luck. Also leave yourself quite a few thousands in your budget for unseen upgrades, that's guaranteed.

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by rpjn59

........Personally i wouldn't take a survey number seriously.............. Also leave yourself quite a few thousands in your budget for unseen upgrades, that's guaranteed.

Agree.......never pay what the surveyor values the boat. I offer what the boat is of value to me taking into consideration what maintenance and repairs I have and upgrades I plan to do compared other boats on the market. Make a realistic budget for these costs before you make your offer and you might be surprised how much that is expected to be.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by YachtBroker

Surveyors using NADA or BUC for sailboat values are just not correct. NADA works for some power boats and that's it. No brokers I know of have used BUC in 20+ years. It's outdated but somehow they keep selling the books to banks.

I used BUC as a guideline when purchasing my boat this past April. Seemed like lots of people are using it.

What is the better alternative?