Can a storm jib be too small

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Based on your boat, I suspect you have roller furling. If you have never changed a headsail on a roller furler at sea in snotty conditions, I'll tell you it is a nightmare. It is VERY different than a hank-on sail.

With a furling sail, the bottom of the sail is free to blow away as you drop or hoist it. there is no easy way to confine it other than LOTS of hands. What is easy at the dock in a gentle breeze is almost not doable at sea in 40 knots with waves washing the deck. It is for sure not doable by one person, and even two will struggle.

I am betting you will never use the storm sail--ever. It is just too hard to install when you need it.

Boats with just a roller furling headsail and nothing else in the fore triangle (and no simple way to install a temporary inner forestay due to lack of mast fittings (and geometry) and lack of hard point in the foredeck) can use a over-the-furl sleeved storm jib (like this one: https://h-sails.com/en/storm-jib/92-storm-jib-for-furling-headsail-7m2.html). It can be installed before leaving and sits below the furling drum. It requires an extra halyard - typically there is a spinnaker halyard available. While they are far forward, they do work.

There’s no way that a short handed crew should be removing a furling sail from the forestay while at sea - hats a disaster just waiting to happen!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Boats with just a roller furling headsail and nothing else in the fore triangle (and no simple way to install a temporary inner forestay due to lack of mast fittings (and geometry) and lack of hard point in the foredeck) can use a over-the-furl sleeved storm jib (like this one: https://h-sails.com/en/storm-jib/92-...dsail-7m2.html). It can be installed before leaving and sits below the furling drum. It requires an extra halyard - typically there is a spinnaker halyard available. While they are far forward, they do work.

There’s no way that a short handed crew should be removing a furling sail from the forestay while at sea - hats a disaster just waiting to happen!

Well, Tom, not necessarily a disaster just waiting to happen. Jim and I routinely did inside/outside sail downings and raising with our Kayzee headfoil on Insatiable (our first Insatiable). These are decisions and actions based on one's experiences, and yours, on your great big cat, are very different from ours on our Standfast 36. We routinely did this stuff for years. I had to lower the topping lift down through the forehatch to haul out the #2. But we did them for a a few years, before we installed roller furling.



Ann

[rognvald]

In my early years on Lake Michigan(Great Lakes), I owned a 1979 Hunter 25 sloop--hull designed by Seidelman that was a tender boat(fin keel/spade rudder) but sailed like a witch in big conditions. I had a triple reef on my main and a purpose-built hank-on storm jib by North Sails(Chicago) that we used on a regular basis over 25 knots of wind. Since we had a limited season up North, there were few days we sat in harbor. I can't imagine any cruising sailor not owning one even if you have roller furling. We are preparing our boat again for our "twilight cruise" and are talking with several sailmakers about a new storm jib and will be having a new 100% jib made for Winter sailing. So, in answer to the OP's question: yes, it can be too small but an oversized storm jib is a waste of money and will not help you when you need it.
One last remark: if you have roller furling sails, it's not a problem to change down sails if you do it early and based on deteriorating conditions. Once the wind hits, it's too late.
Rognvald

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rognvald

One last remark: if you have roller furling sails, it's not a problem to change down sails if you do it early and based on deteriorating conditions. Once the wind hits, it's too late.
Rognvald

That's exactly it. You wouldn't necessarily want a tiny storm jib on a furler, as you'd be changing when you're going to need it, not when you needed it 10 minutes ago. By the time the wind is pickup to where you can't reasonably change sails you should already have a smaller (and heavier/stronger) sail up (and then you can reef it from there if needed).

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Well, Tom, not necessarily a disaster just waiting to happen. Jim and I routinely did inside/outside sail downings and raising with our Kayzee headfoil on Insatiable (our first Insatiable). These are decisions and actions based on one's experiences, and yours, on your great big cat, are very different from ours on our Standfast 36. We routinely did this stuff for years. I had to lower the topping lift down through the forehatch to haul out the #2. But we did them for a a few years, before we installed roller furling.



Ann

Ann, I’ve raced monohulls for decades and inside/outside peels are standard practice. Sail changes absolutely can be done safely with two (experienced) people. But most furling foils only have one slot, so changes must be done bare headed. The other difference is that the furling drum generally sits relatively high, so the sail comes out of the slot well above the deck. Those factors, as well as lack of practice, indicate to me that changing out a large furling genoa for a storm jib when conditions have gotten rough is a recipe for disaster.

Also, consider that a 120% overlapping genoa will begin to be reefed at 20-25 knots AWS. So by the time you get to 35 knots AWS and are considering a storm jib that furling genoa is 50% furled, or even more. To lower that sail you would need to unfurl it. Holy sh*t Batman!

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Ann, I’ve raced monohulls for decades and inside/outside peels are standard practice. Sail changes absolutely can be done safely with two (experienced) people. But most furling foils only have one slot, so changes must be done bare headed. The other difference is that the furling drum generally sits relatively high, so the sail comes out of the slot well above the deck. Those factors, as well as lack of practice, indicate to me that changing out a large furling genoa for a storm jib when conditions have gotten rough is a recipe for disaster.

Also, consider that a 120% overlapping genoa will begin to be reefed at 20-25 knots AWS. So by the time you get to 35 knots AWS and are considering a storm jib that furling genoa is 50% furled, or even more. To lower that sail you would need to unfurl it. Holy sh*t Batman!

Even with 2 slots in the foil (which some furlers have) you have to do a bare-headed change with a furler. You can hoist a sail in the second slot with a second halyard, but it won't be on the top swivel, so then you can't actually use the furler until you drop that sail. And for a sail change you have to drop the sail first so that the new sail can be attached to the top swivel.

[jalmberg]

I suppose asking Jenneau would be too simple? The yacht designer would typically know best.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

I suppose asking Jenneau would be too simple? The yacht designer would typically know best.

Hi, Jalm,
It depends on the commitment of the builder and their desire/ability to provide "real life" numbers.
Rognvald

[jalmberg]

Only one way to find out!

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

I suppose asking Jenneau would be too simple? The yacht designer would typically know best.

I'm afraid "ordinary" production boats are not designed storm sails in mind, nor the weather you'd use one. Not saying they'd be unseaworthy but that's not even close to the primary concerns of a designer.

[Na Mara]

My storm jib looks tiny on my inner forestay. So small in fact that I got an old hanked heavy number two jib cut down to fit the inner stay and make a heavy weather jib. I haven’t had to use either in anger yet but the heavy weather jib would be my go to sail for upwind work in winds between 25-40 knots true as the storm sail just won’t have the drive or sheeting angle necessary. The storm sail I view as a device for running off or heaving to in really heavy winds (45kn plus) when all I want is a rag to balance a tiny bit of main that is easy to spot by the emergency services.

Basically, it’s good to have options and when stuff is really hitting the fan it’s rare that one wishes ones foresail was bigger.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Also, consider that a 120% overlapping genoa will begin to be reefed at 20-25 knots AWS. So by the time you get to 35 knots AWS and are considering a storm jib that furling genoa is 50% furled, or even more. To lower that sail you would need to unfurl it. Holy sh*t Batman!

You're making me feel bad! At 20-25, I've got the inside (95%) jib out, the third reef in the main, and seriously considering going jib alone. Just trying to keep the heel-o-meter under 30 degrees.
By 35, the 95% jib alone is too much.

[nofacey]

Go with sailmaker - you’ll only ever use it in extreme conditions. Should be heavy & emergency orange in colour - this is not a working sail.

I’ve owned a couple storm jibs - not one has ever seen the light of day other than ensuring we could rig it. That includes sailing offshore in 50 kts for short periods - I’d only ever rig the beast if I knew we were facing days of extreme weather.

[jtsailjt]

I have a furling staysail that sort of takes the place of a storm jib (also have a storm staysail that I’ve never used) but having a permanent inner forestay makes it a PIA to tack the jib, so what I wish I had is a staysail on a top down furler that could be stowed when not needed. I prefer a staysail to a storm jib for a couple of reasons. First, the center of effort of the staysail will be lower and closer to the mainsail than the CE of a small jib would be, As an earlier poster mentioned, removing a Genoa or even a 100% jib from a furler while offshore in anything more than calm winds will be a nightmare, so having a storm jib aboard that requires first removing your jib isn’t a very practical option if your jib is on a furler. .

[Loredo]

jtsailjt,
that's what I did, a bottom up furler (I think the top down is for gennakers?) + 2:1 halyard for the working Jib. I specified the new sail exactly for this use case and the sailmaker did a great job. I'm loving it! If you have the sail on the deck in a bag, it's easy to hoist even in a blow. I've had removable and fixed forestays on my previous boats, NEVER used the "stormsail". Since I got the furling thingy things have changed for the better. Today I ask myself how I could possibly have been without it for all these years.