Can I sail with her???

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Russian007

I have a 1903 Monterey Trawler. 29' L x 8'2" W. 10,000 lbs. She's rock solid. She also has a "steadying sail". There's a storm jib in the cabin. The mast is 24' off the deck. And oh, I have no clue how to sail but my friends do. Here's the issue 1) some say it's just a steadying sail to use at anchor 2) Some say it's a steadying sail for use underway under power or at anchor 3) Some say it's a legit sail boat or get-me-home option good for 3knots or so. Can anyone clue me in what to expect?

Would be interesting to see a full side view showing the whole rig, and the placement of the mast. I'm guessing that the mast is not as far aft as it looks in the picture.

If the boat was built in 1903, I'd also guess that it was meant to be sailed; the hull shape and design seem to bear that out. I wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to do better to wind than some suggest here.

As for sail area, is that a gaff hidden under the sail cover? If so, the mainsail area is probably much more than would seem indicated by the mast height.

[belizesailor]

Steading/riding sails are typically cut very flat (minimal curvature in the sail). This suits their purpose, but means they dont generate much power for actually sailing.

Assuming you rig is in good shape, there is no harm in just giving it a try. Get one or more of your sailing friends aboard and take her out for a test run!

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Wotname

It means keeping the boom and sail in line with the centerline of the boat

This is not the way to operate a sail. You can add tell tails to the aft, (leech) of the sail to visually see and control laminar flow over the main or just sheet it in until at least the aft 4/5 is not flogging. A little soft just aft of the mast is OK. If you crank it in to center you will often be stalling the sail and over stressing the rig while forcing a high heel angle. This also generates very little forward drive.

I’m surprised no one has suggested you invite a sailing friend out to help you sort it out. Another possibility is to see if a sailmaker or rigger can tell you about your options. A sailmaker can inspect your sails as well.

Nice looking boat!

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Russian007

I take a beating going across the channel with seas on my beam, if the sail(s) could stabilize her a bit that'd be awesome. Are there pointers for steadying sail usage? PO indicated the storm jib was what to use if engine quit. btw engine is a 28hp volvo diesel...thanks

Given the size of your sail rig, you will definitely see some improvement on a beam sea. At the very least, the sail will dampen the severity and attenuate the rolling motion. You boat is relatively narrow-beam and will 'set' nicely with a sail.

No one can tell from pictures alone whether your rigging is in good shape, or whether it was properly designed for the loads (though chances are very strong the rig is sufficient). The biggest challenge I've seen with using sails on a powerboat is that the running rigging is often non-existent, or there are no blocks or winches to operate correctly. This is where a sailing friend could assist.

Peter

[TrentePieds]

Hello again, Russian :-)

I see that Jim Bunyard has already suggested what I was going to ask you to do: Take a photo of your boat, beam on, and taken from far enuff away that the entire rigging is shown, yet close enuff that the topsides and rigging fills the frame. Then we'll all know much better what we are talking about, and we'll be much better able to answer your questions.

Jim also asked a couple of other pertinent questions, so if you answer those in conjunction with showing us the photo we'll be closer to being able to tell you how to get her sailing in a satisfactory way.

Jim's comment that a boat built in 1903 hails from a time when engines were not common, and therefore she was possibly a sailboat in her youth, is absolutely right, and she should therefore be able to be made to sail again.

Remember that back then, before engines, fishing boats not only had to go a fair distance to sea to make their catch - they also had to be able to get back to port quickly to sell their catch before it spoiled. Therefore they had to have good sailing characteristics. However, what was considered good sailing characteristics at that time was something entirely different from what they are in the minds of people with no maritime tradition behind them who have come into the yachting world during the last half century so there is lots of room for debate and for personal opinion.

A lot of where you go from here depends on what your ambitions are for your self and for the boat, and on how much you already know about boats and seafaring.

I look forward to the photo(s)

By the way: 28HP is quite sufficient. We reckon with 2HP per ton displacement for just going in and out of marinas for gentle Sunday sails. 4HP per ton is the modern norm for auxiliary engines in sailboats that have to cope with adverse conditions. Your displacement is 5 tons (as is mine) so at 28HP you are good. I have 20HP and that is just fine.

TrentePieds

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Very familiar with long keel power boats with sails. Even fairly sizeable sails such as OPs, they are "get somewhere" vs "get home" power.
Peter

Can you clarify this point? Not sure I get it.

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Would be interesting to see a full side view showing the whole rig, and the placement of the mast. I'm guessing that the mast is not as far aft as it looks in the picture.

If the boat was built in 1903, I'd also guess that it was meant to be sailed; the hull shape and design seem to bear that out. I wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to do better to wind than some suggest here.

As for sail area, is that a gaff hidden under the sail cover? If so, the mainsail area is probably much more than would seem indicated by the mast height.

It's not a gaff rig. The mast is between the wheelhouse and cabin, snug against the cabin wall.

[jimbunyard]

Well the enigma deepens. Based on the design shown in your original picture the mast seems to be in about the right place for a primary driver, but I hardly think 80 square feet is enough, nor does the mast seem stout enough. In contrast the boom looks double-size, diameter wise, and it seems there is a halyard provision for a headsail.

To answer your original question, I'd guess the engine is going to be your primary propulsion, wth the sail used as a complement or in a steadying capacity.

I'd be curious how she came by that rig though, and wonder if it wasn't added as a 'use what's available' option. I'd also be curious to see what she'd do with an appropriatly sized and configured rig, but that can get pretty expensive pretty fast...

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Well the enigma deepens. Based on the design shown in your original picture the mast seems to be in about the right place for a primary driver, but I hardly think 80 square feet is enough, nor does the mast seem stout enough. In contrast the boom looks double-size, diameter wise, and it seems there is a halyard provision for a headsail.

To answer your original question, I'd guess the engine is going to be your primary propulsion, wth the sail used as a complement or in a steadying capacity.

I'd be curious how she came by that rig though, and wonder if it wasn't added as a 'use what's available' option. I'd also be curious to see what she'd do with an appropriatly sized and configured rig, but that can get pretty expensive pretty fast...

This below is the original configuration of the 1903 Trawler. Ketch rig. My hull is glass/System One over Port Orford Cedar. Mast however is Aluminum. I've always thought it skinny too.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Russian007

This below is the original configuration of the 1903 Trawler. Ketch rig. My hull is glass/System One over Port Orford Cedar. Mast however is Aluminum. I've always thought it skinny too.

well, I may be missing something here, and apologize if I have.

A beautiful old lady that can turn into a real gem. however, this looks like a motor trawler with tiny masts that I think would hardly help moving her. Something more of a design for keeping from extra rolling. Not sure there is a centerboard but again - this is a trawler bottom shape.

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by DeValency

well, I may be missing something here, and apologize if I have.

A beautiful old lady that can turn into a real gem. however, this looks like a motor trawler with tiny masts that I think would hardly help moving her. Something more of a design for keeping from extra rolling. Not sure there is a centerboard but again - this is a trawler bottom shape.

That's the 1903 original, mine is a replica that was cloned off this one so it never had twin masts. Not sure why they deviated from that configuration. I know the guy that built it was an ace.

[Lepke]

Monterey fishing boats came from a sailing design. In 1903 it may have originally been sail only.When gas and diesel engines became available, the hull designs remained the same for several classes of commercial fishing boats for about 20 years. Most had some sail rig because early engines weren't reliable.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Russian007

That's the 1903 original, mine is a replica that was cloned off this one so it never had twin masts. Not sure why they deviated from that configuration. I know the guy that built it was an ace.

That’s good for the potential build quality. And for sure, she can (somewhat) move downwind and in a very broad reach with the appropriate rigging - based on her displacement, ballast etc. (I didn’t see these critical numbers). But that would hardly make her an efficient sailboat, at least in today’s terms.

As a sailor, if she was mine and if she is well classic well built, I would turn her into a beautiful motor trawler and forget about sailing her.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Russian007

Can you clarify this point? Not sure I get it.

The added pictures clarify quite a bit. Your boat was setup as more of a motor-sailor. Usually, trawlers with sails do not have as much sail area. Your rigging plan looks fine (condition cannot be validated via pictures). You'd get some decent sail-assist to your motor. The Willard 30 Horizon model (example HERE) carries a modest sail plan. Owners report she does best with sails-up and the engine ticking over at relatively low RPMs.

The Monterey Clippers (they usually had a clipper bow vs OP's plumb bow) were a fixture on the San Francisco waterfront through the 1950's. The SF Maritime Museum near Ghiradelli Square has good history, as does Hyde Street Pier. They originally had Lateeen sails. The last active fishing boat (though his Monterey Clipper was long since replaced) was run by the son of Chinese immigrants along the San Rafael cost of SF Bay, China Camp.

To the OP - you have a nice replica of a fine west coast boat that mostly operated in hostile waters. Assuming reasonable condition, hoist the sails and see how it goes. Find a friend with even a small bit of sailing experience to get you started.

Peter

[ben2go]

Originally Posted by Russian007

I have a 1903 Monterey Trawler. 29' L x 8'2" W. 10,000 lbs. She's rock solid. She also has a "steadying sail". There's a storm jib in the cabin. The mast is 24' off the deck. And oh, I have no clue how to sail but my friends do. Here's the issue 1) some say it's just a steadying sail to use at anchor 2) Some say it's a steadying sail for use underway under power or at anchor 3) Some say it's a legit sail boat or get-me-home option good for 3knots or so. Can anyone clue me in what to expect?

Your boat is lightly rigged for a steadying sail for use at anchor or light winds. You could re-rig the boat and possibly sail or motor sail in the right conditions. I'm not an expert just someone that has researched this a lot as I wanted a sail home option on a M/V I was wanting to build. My advice would be to get an experienced rigger involved to let you know exactly what you have and what your options are. It would be well worth it for a piece of mind.