Canoe stern vs ????

[Captain Red]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

I would think a canoe stern might also make it more difficult to install a windvane.. (IMHO)

cheers

No problem on a Valiant 42. Crossed the Atlantic with our Monitor windvane at the helm the entire way.

[Captain Red]

Originally Posted by massnspace

I am actively looking for a boat for some offshore sailing.

I am sold on the modified fin with skeg-hung rudder. Done.

But what about the stern? I am leaning towards a canoe-stern, but some other boats have what I think is a referred to as a “wineglass” shape, and still others seemed pinched off really high.

So what are the pros and cons of each? Do any work better with a longer fin and skeg underbody? Any advice welcome.

David
Seattle

There's no doubt the Valiant 40/42 is the belle of the marina wherever you sail. After 6 years and 20,000 miles in Aleta (V42) we also discovered we don't get pooped like big modern cruisers do. And despite our relatively low freeboard, we aren't boarded by waves frequently. We don't get the slamming of modern, flat bottomed boats either. I've become convinced that the classic double-enders that you see all over Europe and especially in Holland are built that way for good reason. So despite what Mr. Perry says, there's some hydrodynamic advantages that I wish a marine engineer would look into and prove (or not) once and for all. IMHO double-enders handle rough seas better. Yes you give up room in the stern, but you know what? I'd trade that space for better handling any day of the week.



Cheers!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Captain Red

There's no doubt the Valiant 40/42 is the belle of the marina wherever you sail. After 6 years and 20,000 miles in Aleta (V42) we also discovered we don't get pooped like big modern cruisers do. And despite our relatively low freeboard, we aren't boarded by waves frequently. We don't get the slamming of modern, flat bottomed boats either. I've become convinced that the classic double-enders that you see all over Europe and especially in Holland are built that way for good reason. So despite what Mr. Perry says, there's some hydrodynamic advantages that I wish a marine engineer would look into and prove (or not) once and for all. IMHO double-enders handle rough seas better. Yes you give up room in the stern, but you know what? I'd trade that space for better handling any day of the week.



Cheers!

The double enders of Europe were designed for the North Sea, Irish Sea and English Channel where the wave action is often short and steep so the ability to punch through in weather was an important factor.
Until recent years many of the RNLI lifeboats were double ender designs for decades.

[Greatest Lakes]

I'd have to say windvanes fit much better on a narrow stern or a canoe stern than the new ones that are the widest part of the hull.

[Captain Red]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The double enders of Europe were designed for the North Sea, Irish Sea and English Channel where the wave action is often short and steep so the ability to punch through in weather was an important factor.
Until recent years many of the RNLI lifeboats were double ender designs for decades.

Yes, exactly. The same is true of the Med, the Bay of Biscay, the Gulf of Maine, Long Island Sound, and Cape Canaveral, etc. Crossing the Atlantic and being chased by a force 6/7 storm she proved sea kindly in those conditions, too.

[Pat_D]

Originally Posted by GILow

As a long time canoe stern owner I observe the following:

1. They look kinda salty so everyone assumes you can sail.
2. They reduce the useable space inside the boat more than you’d believe.

Apparently they do some other stuff, something to do with following seas, rough conditions…

But points 1 and 2 cover most of it.

What he said. Related to part 2., I'm eager to get tiller steering partly to get the quadrant etc. Out of the laz.

[captchetco]

Loss of stoage space is always a concern, as is: where you stow weighty objects. Stowage space options are helpful.
:

[NormanMartin]

The big deal with design is suitability to purpose.

You can find some excellent discussions by Bill Creelock and Bob Perry on YouTube regarding sterns and other things.

A yacht design book by Doug Hunter and Steve Killing is illuminating and contemporary.

If you don't go, it doesn't matter what you have. If you do go... have fun.

[Amordobarco]

I have a Nordica 20 with the canoe stern. She rides the waves and swells very well with no problems with following seas. She rides like a cork really. I am very happy with the boat in every respect.

[Toccata]

An old thread, but I couldn't resist posting a photo of my canoe stern.
The boat had a sailing rig when I bought her, but currently using as a power boat only.
She carries her beam well aft.
Of interest she was a fishing boat, and the stern quarter area, is easier to pull a net over and into the boat with this stern design.

[Seighlor]

She's lovely.

[Cheechako]

I guess you could consider my former Monterey Clipper mini trawler a canoe:

[Wolfe10]

Have had several canoe stern boats-- Pacific Seacraft 34 and two 37's.


In visiting with Bill Crealock many decades ago, his reasoning is that when "all hell breaks loose" your "stern becomes your bow" as you run off before the storm. The canoe stern, being a "finer entry" is less likely to broach than a wide transom boat.


And, having done a lot of miles in my brother's Catalina 350 (read that wide stern) the Crealock is a lot easier in following seas for the reason Mr. Crealock gave.

[Briis]

Canoe stern does look much more salty, but that's not the point of it.

As said above, double ender's rear becomes your front when the situation turns into utter s*it sailing with bare poles in Force 10 with 30-foot crashing waves pooping you over like a temporary submarine, with or without drogue. Your nice shiny fancy fiddly wide and large plastic flat rear plate becomes your death sentence once the 15-ton wave crashes on you. No doubt it's good for smooth weather-planned weekend sailing when your girlfriend/wifey brings 500lbs of stuff with her to store plus your own hobby crap, or 7+ man fast and hard working crew of ultra-fast Volvo ocean racing-like with very short and utterly precisely planned crossing windows. But factually not so good for serious off-the-charts ocean crossing or high latitude sailing when things turn heavy with little to no warning. It's becoming especially important with nowadays globally warming thus growingly unpredictable seas and oceans.

Also the modern weekend-oriented sailboat design "more storage room at the rear" argument is totally moot, particularly storing heavy items on the rear compartments - it's a recipe for disaster in itself with weight distribution to far from center of the boat, compromising stability thus destroying the very essence of boat safety on heavy seas. Canoe stern fixes that - you can only store heavy items in the center of the boat where is room (no room in the front or rear - on serious purpose!), hence optimizing the boat weight distribution by the very elegant design in itself that works in harmony with the sea weather itself with a limited crew.

No wonder the heavy-weather and survival/life- boats are almost all double enders throughout history.

Hence design wise, I find the canoe stern is vastly superior to modern boat design that are strongly biased towards leisure and weekend-sailor orientation rather than proper safety and all-weather all-sea conditions reliability. Canoe stern is the very antidote to that consumerist design thinking going on these greedy days we live in.

[Cheechako]

"I like big butts and I can not lie. You other brothers can't deny..."