Cold weather gear

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by kevinmac

Tao, I am superstitious, I'll wait until the survey is over and the title is transferred before talking about it.

Kevin

Perfectly understandable, Kevin. I hope your survey goes well, and that the vessel is even more than you dreamed.

TaoJones

[svHyLyte]

I hate to rain on your parade but, unless you are VERY experienced, both personally and with the yacht you will be sailing, making a trip north along the California, Oregon, Washington coast in the middle of Winter is a very risky business even for professional delivery crews. See:

'Lectronic Latitude December 18, 2006

and:

OREGON / Body found south of catamaran / Intense search for sailboat's missing crew

If you choose to go, hopefully you'll prove my misgivings groundless, but having lived and sailed on that coast for 45+ years, I'd give it some careful thought.

If you choose to make this trip I suggest you give serious thought to Mustang Ocean Commander® Immersion Suit :: Mustang Survival

Good Luck!

s/v HyLyte

[David M]

It's not all that hard to install a heater that uses the waste heat from the engines coolant. It cost a few hundred bucks, but man, what a nice difference! This thing cranks out the heat! I can make it like the desert below deck if I want. You are not going to like being aboard a boat that you cannot dry out on occasion. I installed the heater in about a day.

It is similar to this one: HEATER 28 000 BTU 12V FLUSH MNT W/SWITCH & WIRE 117075

[Viking Sailor]

Who spends more time on deck in cold wet weather? (Hint: You eat what the catch.) Now, I wonder where they buy there stuff?

Seriously, check out the commercial fishing supply stores. My experience is that they are low tech but effective and a great value.

[kevinmac]

Hylyte,

A *huge* amount of attention has been paid (by me) to the question of whether this can be done safely. The skipper I will be hiring has 35,000 miles just in the exact type of boat we are taking, has EXCELLENT references, does all the factory deliveries for the type boat I am buying, and has tons of miles on the west coast in sailboats between Chile and Prince Rupert Island (or whatever that place up in Canada is called, hope I did not get it wrong). This skipper lives in Santa Cruz, used to live in Seattle, and knows the route. I have talked about the trip with several other delivery skippers, and a delivery skipper who also teaches offshore sailing, and the concensus is that if there is no pressure on us to make a schedule, and we are careful to pick big weather windows, and then keep track of the weather very carefully, that the trip can be made safely. I have studied the accident you referred to in your link very carefully - every sailor that I even meet in a bar brings it up to me (and not in relation to this trip, just buying a cat), so I have to be familiar with it. It is inexplicable to me why that accident happened, the ferocity of the weather was well forecast, but I don't want this thread to degenerate into yet again discussing what we will never know for sure: why. I thank you for your concern, and I too was very suprised when it was suggested that the boat could be sailed up the coast this time of year, but after a lot of investigation, it seems doable. If I have it wrong, I will pay the price for misjudgement. Assuming I don't get killed in traffic tonight, which I consider a less controllable risk.

David, about the heater, a very good suggestion, but for reasons too long to go into here, I can't get the heater I want installed until I get to Portland... But thanks for the suggestion.

Viking, I had been thinking about trying the fisherman stores. Unfortunately, a hell of a wind just blew threw the Oregon coast, and I can't even phone the coast (where the stores are) let along drive there right now. I will head up there when they are recovered, hopefully before I am leaving. Thanks.

Kevin

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by kevinmac

Hylyte,

A *huge* amount of attention has been paid (by me) to the question of whether this can be done safely. The skipper I will be hiring has 35,000 miles just in the exact type of boat we are taking, has EXCELLENT references, does all the factory deliveries for the type boat I am buying, and has tons of miles on the west coast in sailboats between Chile and Prince Rupert Island (or whatever that place up in Canada is called, hope I did not get it wrong). This skipper lives in Santa Cruz, used to live in Seattle, and knows the route. I have talked about the trip with several other delivery skippers, and a delivery skipper who also teaches offshore sailing, and the concensus is that if there is no pressure on us to make a schedule, and we are careful to pick big weather windows, and then keep track of the weather very carefully, that the trip can be made safely. I have studied the accident you referred to in your link very carefully - every sailor that I even meet in a bar brings it up to me (and not in relation to this trip, just buying a cat), so I have to be familiar with it. It is inexplicable to me why that accident happened, the ferocity of the weather was well forecast, but I don't want this thread to degenerate into yet again discussing what we will never know for sure: why. I thank you for your concern, and I too was very suprised when it was suggested that the boat could be sailed up the coast this time of year, but after a lot of investigation, it seems doable. If I have it wrong, I will pay the price for misjudgement. Assuming I don't get killed in traffic tonight, which I consider a less controllable risk.

David, about the heater, a very good suggestion, but for reasons too long to go into here, I can't get the heater I want installed until I get to Portland... But thanks for the suggestion.

Viking, I had been thinking about trying the fisherman stores. Unfortunately, a hell of a wind just blew threw the Oregon coast, and I can't even phone the coast (where the stores are) let along drive there right now. I will head up there when they are recovered, hopefully before I am leaving. Thanks.

Kevin

Sailing up the West Coast of the US is challenging any time of the year (especially winter). You are running against Mother Nature. However, if you don't saddle youself with a schedule and are willing to to take as much time as it takes to get a good weather window and don't mind motoring from port to port, you will be fine. If you think that you can do it in 30 days, you may be asking for trouble.

I have known people that have gotten stuck in one port or another for 30 days due to weather. This is starting out to be a nasty winter. I hope that you have a lot of time on your hands.

As for clothes, I wouldnt consider making that trip in anything short of a survival suite in winter. I wore one 24/7 when I sailed to Antartica. It really was cumfy.

One other thing......there is NO SUCH THING as a BIG weather window. You get 3 days of fairly reliable forecasting.....that's it. Please don't forget that.

[Amgine]

<nods> During Oct. there were at least two boats which went missing between Hawaii and Alaska. The most recent bit of weather you're referring to had winds well into hurricane forces; it's been about every other week we've had a full storm off the coast, and at least three have reached force 12.

The best foulies for such weather is usually a nice hotel roof, or at least something tied up in port.

[Charlie]

Kevinmac:

Be careful. It can be really nasty out there. A fellow who watches my boat in Astoria said that there were 70' waves recorded off the coast before the buoy was carried away. With 146 mile an hour gusts and sustained winds of 90 knots.
Not a good place for any kind of boat.

[kevinmac]

I have 35 years as an aircraft pilot under my belt (I started at 17), so I have a lot of experience with weather forecasts. Both the delivery skipper and I agree that really the forecasts are only truly accurate for about 12 hours, and mostly accurate for 24. Beyond that they are a crapshoot (our opinion only, yours maybe be different). We will wait for a *forecast* weather window of 5 days or so, then watch the weather enroute, and stop or run like hell at the first sign the the forecast is not working out.

But I don't trust myself to make the proper decisions on this trip, I don't have the experience, and the aircraft parallell teaches me that there is no substitute for having done it a bunch of times. The thing I vetted most carefully about the skipper is that he is a cautious, careful man. An old sailor, not a bold sailor. And I made it clear that I don't care if it takes six months to get there. We can leave the boat whereever the weather stops us, fly or drive away, and come back when the next forecast looks good. Whenever that is. That could cost some serious money if we get stopped in the wrong port, but so be it, I would rather be alive.

Still, the other thing airplanes taught me is that all my care could be for naught. It is more risky than an airline flight, more risky than staying home in bed. All I have been doing my whole life is doing my very best to reduce the risks as much as possible, assessing whether I am comfortable with the remaining risks, and then deciding whether to go or not. In this case, I have, after weeks of research and thought, decided to go. If I got it wrong, it will be because my best was not good enough, or something significantly unlikely occurred.

But then that could happen to me on an inland lake. A person I know lost his finance when a power boat running without lights at night ran them down and sunk him. There are a ton of other examples.

Sorry, I am going on too long and being to philosophical. But I wanted y'all to know I appreciate your concern, and that we are being very, very careful.

All that said, I expect to have a lot of fun, and I expect it to take 3 to 4 legs to get up the coast over perhaps 2 months. The skipper says he thinks it will be two legs, and will take a month. IF I buy the boat, I'll let y'all know how it all came out...

Even if my worst case comes true, it will STILL be cheaper than shipping the boat, and I get 15 days (or whatever) of sailing/motoring instruction in the new boat with an expert. I am looking forward to it...

Kevin

[Evan]

Fleece pants, not jeans. The best gloves I've found in really shitty weather are polypro liners, followed by the rubberized fisherman type vinyl gloves. Don't breathe worth a damm but they are cheap and you can have several pairs drying out in cycles.

Maybe think about a temporary heater?

2 legs is not possible IMO at that time of year. The lows come in so fast sometimes, you have to take shelter.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Kanani

stuck in one port or another for 30 days due to weather.

30 day storm?
I'm not having a shot at you, Kanani, but I think you'd agree they must have been rugged up nice and warm in the dockside tavern not wanting to venture out.

There gets to be a time to sail in a blow, or we won't learn how. The fishermen of the far north (your part of the world, Alaska, Newfoundland, Canada, Northern Europe etc) and far south (Tasmania, Chile, TierraDel feugo, the 3 capes Leeuwin, Horn and Bloody Hopeless etc) have done it for generations.
I'm not saying disregard local knowledge as you obviously know the area and I don't, and I am a bit startled to read that it was blowing above 90 kts for 8 straight hours, but over a period of a week there surely would have been ample opportunity to do a 24 hour hop in only 30 to 40 kts.
If we wait for 10 kts up the butt we would be waiting all winter and half of summer and we will have learned nothing about handling our boats when we get stuck outside in bad weather.

I worked as mate to an English pro (!!) skipper on a delivery in the north Atlantic who freely admitted in his 25 years sailing he had never been out in more than 33 knots. (He also had a rule of shortening sail at 12 knots. but thats another story). When we hit a cell on the Grand Banks he s*** himself! the wind meter wasn't working and he thought it was like 50 kts or something... It was only about 35... anyway the swell there picks up short and steep and it LOOKS a bit more tragic than it is. Wasn't breaking. We were punching into it, But with our course we could have bared away south till on 40 lat and turned left for the Azores. But do you know what he did? Dropped the friggin sails and lay a hull!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moral of my story is: Go sail in storms. I'm not saying 90 kts! Or even 50, but nice gentle 40 - 45's. Learn about what they are. Learn to be safe in them. Learn to be confident in them. Get cold and get wet and learn to keep working while you're having a heave over the side.

Otherwise we are just a pale imitation of our forefathers.



Mark

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

... Moral of my story is: Go sail in storms. I'm not saying 90 kts! Or even 50, but nice gentle 40 - 45's. Learn about what they are. Learn to be safe in them. Learn to be confident in them. Get cold and get wet and learn to keep working while you're having a heave over the side.
Mark

While it’s inevitable that we’ll all encounter storms (technically 48 - 55 Kts); I would never counsel anyone to SET OUT in a storm, just for the experience.
“Trouble” that finds us, is misfortune; that which we seek out, would be misadventure and folly.

[MarkJ]

Hang on, Gord, you just ramped my pleasant 40-45 to 48-55! With a larger font! I don't know whats worse, the ramp, the increase, or the font.

What would you do?

Come on. Would you think? "Hmmmm 45kts, I could do that". A bit of wind in the face. Coming off th BACK of a low where you know its going to settle. Good boat. Nice wet weather gear. Warm heater below.

I dunno, maybe its just me, but I love it when theres a bit of stick. When the seas grey, the Shearwaters fly close to the waves, the ripples have ripples, the salt stings your face, when you feel the bow begin to rise on a pitch black night and you have just moments to feel if the unseen wave needs you to pinch up; and then have a knife edge so you don't slam down, and you feel when the bow has gone through the crest and there's air while its drops and you feel that surge of the stern when you know the back can't be moving faster than the front. And the wait till you feel the bow touch bottom and shoulder the water as the boat says I'm here, I'm coming through, and you feel the spring of the boat as aft catches up with bow. You feel the wind re-touch your sail as you come up again like a firm hand pulling your forstay down to the water and you bite into the wind for it gives you power, but you only want a bit and shrug the rest off. And this, like this for every moment of your watch, not seeing one wave in the pitch black of your 4 hours, but knowing your watch mate will do the same in his stint.

Give me a palm tree and an island full of girls, but give me a storm to get there so I have a story to tell.




Mark

[GordMay]

Sorry for shouting (font size).

I suppose I’m being semantically anal again, but I just wanted to point out that your ”nice gentle 40 - 45's” are not technically* a Force 10 Storm, but a Gale (Force 8 Fresh Gale 34-40 kt, or Force 9 Strong Gale 41-47 kt).

When the “ripples have ripples” sounds more (to me) like a Breeze than a Storm.

* Captain Beaufort’s 1805 scale was silent as to wind speed values corresponding to his force scale. While 1906 is often given as the year in which wind speed equivalents were introduced, Allingham showed a table of wind speeds/scales in his 1900 tet.

Sea State Characteristics:
Force 3 Fresh Breeze (17-21 Kt) Moderate waves 4-8 ft taking longer form, many whitecaps, some spray.
Force 4 Strong Breeze (22-27 Kt): Larger waves 8-13 ft, whitecaps common, more spray.
...
Force 8 Gale (35-40 Kt): Moderately high (13-20 ft) waves of greater length, edges of crests begin to break into spindrift, foam blown in streaks
Force 9 Strong Gale (41-47 Kt): High waves (20 ft), sea begins to roll over, dense streaks of foam, spray may reduce visibility
Force 10 STORM (48-55): Very high waves (20-30 ft) with overhanging crests ( considerable tumbling), sea white with densely blown foam, heavy rolling, lowered visibility.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

30 day storm?
I'm not having a shot at you, Kanani, but I think you'd agree they must have been rugged up nice and warm in the dockside tavern not wanting to venture out.

There gets to be a time to sail in a blow, or we won't learn how. The fishermen of the far north (your part of the world, Alaska, Newfoundland, Canada, Northern Europe etc) and far south (Tasmania, Chile, TierraDel feugo, the 3 capes Leeuwin, Horn and Bloody Hopeless etc) have done it for generations.
I'm not saying disregard local knowledge as you obviously know the area and I don't, and I am a bit startled to read that it was blowing above 90 kts for 8 straight hours, but over a period of a week there surely would have been ample opportunity to do a 24 hour hop in only 30 to 40 kts.
If we wait for 10 kts up the butt we would be waiting all winter and half of summer and we will have learned nothing about handling our boats when we get stuck outside in bad weather.

I worked as mate to an English pro (!!) skipper on a delivery in the north Atlantic who freely admitted in his 25 years sailing he had never been out in more than 33 knots. (He also had a rule of shortening sail at 12 knots. but thats another story). When we hit a cell on the Grand Banks he s*** himself! the wind meter wasn't working and he thought it was like 50 kts or something... It was only about 35... anyway the swell there picks up short and steep and it LOOKS a bit more tragic than it is. Wasn't breaking. We were punching into it, But with our course we could have bared away south till on 40 lat and turned left for the Azores. But do you know what he did? Dropped the friggin sails and lay a hull!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moral of my story is: Go sail in storms. I'm not saying 90 kts! Or even 50, but nice gentle 40 - 45's. Learn about what they are. Learn to be safe in them. Learn to be confident in them. Get cold and get wet and learn to keep working while you're having a heave over the side.

Otherwise we are just a pale imitation of our forefathers.



Mark

I don't think that I said anything about a 30-day storm (I didn't go back & read it).

Waiting for a weather window, to me, is looking for a safe period, long enough to make it to the next port.

At the monent, we are getting cold fronts one after another. That happens some years on this coast.

I'll tell ya, Point Conception can be a real bitch. The only way that I will round that point (North bound) under sail is if the forecast is for 10-15 or better yet, calm. I'd much rather sail the Southern Ocean (which I've done). I have no problem when I have lots of sea room.

The current rounding Conception runs S and can get quite strong in a N-NW breese. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to tack up in a strong current for hour after hour and find yourself in the same place that you tacked last time.

Using the example of northern sea fishermen isn't very realistic . I wouldn't have a problem going up the coast in a 60' fishing boat with 2- 300hp engines. A light sailboat (much less a Cat) is a totally different discussion.