Collapsing brokerage market for Monohulls

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

If one purchases a 35 year old 35 ft boat (lets say a Niagara) that sold for $60K in 1980, they can now buy this vessel for:

A) junk boats for around $10K
B) poorly maintained for $15 - 20K,
C) well maintained but not upgraded for $20-30K
D) well maintained with some valuable recent upgrades for $30-40K
E) pristine condition with almost everything renewed for about $50K.

If one purchases a A) category boat and tries to make it an E) category boat, it will cost them about $100K all in.

If one purchases a category C) boat and turns it into a Category D, they will have about $60K in.

To go from D to E, they will have about $80 K in.

If one purchases an E) category boat and lets it slide to C) category over a 10 year period, it will likely sell for about $20K.

So the worst value (almost always) is a category A) boat, where one has the least invested, but from beginning to end, owns a piece of junk, or spends way more bringing it up in category, than they could have purchased a vessel for, already in that category.

The best value (almost always) is a category E boat, where someone has gone to great expense to make it beautiful, and for some reason, decided to sell it before getting the value of their improvement costs out of it in use and enjoyment.

Trying to purchase a Category E) boat for category C) price, is a waste of time (no seller in there right mind would do it, and they don't have to), Category E) boats usually sell quickly, because anybody who knows anything about boats knows what a great value it is at that price, and if they snooze, they will most definitely lose.

The real trouble is, many purchasers (especially those with either no, or only Category A previous experience) don't value, or can't differentiate between the categories.

They see a price range for a model from $10K to $50K, buy one for $15 K and think they got a great deal.

In reality, they most likely bought a $15K boat, and just don't realize it yet, until they start fixing, or watch a category E) example of that same vessel sails into anchorage and their jaw drops at how beautiful it is, and if they get an invite aboard, they quickly realize that they got exactly what they paid for.

As always, the buyer wants the selling price low, and the seller wants the selling price high, and the two will reach a compromise that usually represents close to the true value of the boat.

Holding out for this is a fools game where one could have been enjoying a fine example of that boat, for all the years they searched for the "deal of a lifetime". How does one factor misspent years into this equation?

True enuf as far as it goes. May i recount my experience in the market looking for a Hughes 38? In the past 2 years, i have looked at about 30 Hughes 38s, and have observed boats from asking $50KCan to selling $150Can. Many of the boats priced over $30KCan are aesthetically beautiful but sporting expensive silliness. NO ONE discusses having replaced or inspected the keel bolts, redone the hull/deck joint, filled and redrilled the deck bolts, or the condition of the deck (delamination or water intrusion).

So i have to wonder if these aesthetic wonders selling for big money really are worth it. Are their keel bolts any better than the cheap H38s? Are their hull/deck joints really any better? Are their decks really more sound? Admittedly they often have new or recent motors, but that isnt really any big deal to me as i find it easy to install a remanufactured motor for far less money than they probably spent. So why should i pay for expensive mistakes that the seller spent his money on? One seller claims $85KCan "invested" (read wasted) in stuff that doesn't add one iota to the safety of the vessel. Should i pay for that? NO!

So i disagree that the best deal is the "category E" boat, because i question the integrity of the structure of the vessel. i am looking for what you call a "category C" boat, with a well maintained structure but few or no expensive things that i don't want or need. Expensive things that i want or need are just a bonus.

So i ask myself, if i have to pay for (or DIY), major refits of the structure of the vessel, why should i pay for some aesthetic bells and whistles that the seller thot made for a good time on the water? It is the rare owner on Lake Champlain or the great lakes that buys stuff that i think is important and necessary in an ocean-going sailboat.

As far as holding out for a great deal, you don't know my or anyone else's financial, family or work situations and why they would find it reasonable to wait for a great deal. Myself, i see no reason to have an ocean-going sailboat in the puddles near Montreal, and i refuse to cross the American border just to go sailing for the day. So i content myself with my Foilcat 14 while i wait for the family situation to change so that we can move to Nova Scotia where an ocean-going sailboat makes sense.

jon

[ramblinrod]

Responses in red.

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

True enuf as far as it goes. May i recount my experience in the market looking for a Hughes 38? In the past 2 years, i have looked at about 30 Hughes 38s, and have observed boats from asking $50KCan to selling $150Can. Many of the boats priced over $30KCan are aesthetically beautiful but sporting expensive silliness.

Define silliness?

If you've looked at 30 Hughes 38's from $50K to $150K and have yet to find one to your liking, I can direct you to one for $20K with an installed Yanmar 3GM30F with only 30 hours on it. You won't offend the owner offering $17K, it's a nice engine with a questionable boat around it. I can assure you, if a Hughes 38 has sold for more than $50K in the last 5 years, it is some kind of special boat, or some dumb#$%# purchaser.


NO ONE discusses having replaced or inspected the keel bolts, redone the hull/deck joint, filled and redrilled the deck bolts, or the condition of the deck (delamination or water intrusion).

Every boat is expected to have sound keel bolts, and hull deck join. Having these repairs adds no value. Having this deficiency will show up in the survey, and will devalue the boat.

So i have to wonder if these aesthetic wonders selling for big money really are worth it. Are their keel bolts any better than the cheap H38s? Are their hull/deck joints really any better? Are their decks really more sound?

Only the survey will tell. (Unless one has a moisture meter, a sounding hammer and knows how to use each properly.) What I can tell you, is that I have yet to uncover a freshwater boat with keel bolt problems, that has not had major grounding damage.

Admittedly they often have new or recent motors...

For a Hughes 38, a 40 HP new repower is about $20K for the engine and $10K for the re and re hired out, so yes, that certainly adds to the fair market value. About $16K the day after it is installed, and 10% less per year thereafter.

but that isnt really any big deal to me as i find it easy to install a remanufactured motor for far less money than they probably spent. So why should i pay for expensive mistakes that the seller spent his money on?

If you don't value a new motor installed by someone else, then don'tlook for boats that have it, and are value higher than you wish to spend. Nobody is suggesting you should, limit your search to lower cost vessels with old motors you can replace.

One seller claims $85KCan "invested" (read wasted) in stuff that doesn't add one iota to the safety of the vessel. Should i pay for that? NO!

If you don't value the upgrades, again, don't consider one, look for an old non-upgraded boat that is in you price range.

So i disagree that the best deal is the "category E" boat, because i question the integrity of the structure of the vessel.

A Category E) boat by definition is well maintained, which includes all facets of the vessel. So if you don't value an excellent condition boat, with well executed upgrades, fine, don't buy it, but don't expect the owner to sell it to you for the same price as a Category A junk boat. He would be an absolute idiot to do that, and if he's an absolute idiot, I assure you, it is not a category E boat.

i am looking for what you call a "category C" boat, with a well maintained structure but few or no expensive things that i don't want or need.

Fine, then look for that.

Expensive things that i want or need are just a bonus.

No, expensive things are a "value adder" that others who value them will pay for, so don't expect something for nothing. This is why you have looked at 30 examples of the same boat, and not found one to your liking in your price range.

So i ask myself, if i have to pay for (or DIY), major refits of the structure of the vessel, why should i pay for some aesthetic bells and whistles that the seller thot made for a good time on the water?

Nobody is forcing you to put an offer on a boat your don't want. If you want an old junker you can work on and know how every single bolt went in, that is what you should buy.

It is the rare owner on Lake Champlain or the great lakes that buys stuff that i think is important and necessary in an ocean-going sailboat.

Then for god's sake, don't look there.

As far as holding out for a great deal, you don't know my or anyone else's financial, family or work situations and why they would find it reasonable to wait for a great deal.

[COLOR="red"]You're right! What I do know, is that most people purchasers don't know a category A from E boat, and those who don't value a quality boat, a well maintained boat, with valuable upgrades, are wasting their time trying to buy on for Category A prices, because no boat owner is that stupid.COLOR]

Myself, i see no reason to have an ocean-going sailboat in the puddles near Montreal, and i refuse to cross the American border just to go sailing for the day.

Then by all means, please don't.

So i content myself with my Foilcat 14 while i wait for the family situation to change so that we can move to Nova Scotia where an ocean-going sailboat makes sense.

jon

Seriously?

[ckrogstad]

Anyone?

1) Do brokers and brokerages have any fiduciary duty or duty of care owed to the sellers who list their boats with them? How is this relationship similar or different than in real estate?

2) Do brokers offer any kind of warranty or assurances on what they are representing, or is it all caveat emptor? Are there any sort of legally binding disclosures?

3) Is there such a thing as a buyer's agent, someone with duty to the buyer?

4) Is there a standard commission range for brokers, or a range?

5) Are there For Sale By Owner sites? Most of the used boats I see on the infrawebs are listed by a broker. (It seems that with plunging prices, FSBO would be a way for sellers to capture more equity).

I hope you all will chime in with a little brokerage primer, and feel free to add more (germane) topics.

[Whitebread117]

1 depends on the state. FL and CA require broker licensing like in real estate, everywhere else a "broker" is just a sales guy/gal. Sell cars one day, mattresses the next, boats the day after that.

2 unless you can prove false representation (not easy to do) it's all caveat emptor. If I buy a 50' Oyster on paper and in reality it's a 25' Hunter, I probably have some recourse. If I buy a boat that is advertised "everything perfect" and after the fact I find out the engine is an oil burning piece of junk, that's my problem no recourse. That's where surveys come in.

3. Yes, they work for you and split commission with selling broker (usually).

4. 10%. Like real estate, could be less if a broker is hungry. But cut commission rate can also mean less effort put towards selling.

5. Sailboatlistings.com and craigslist. The former is usually pretty optimistic on their pricing, the latter can have good deals if you sort through the junk. Also for every one boat listed somewhere there are 3 others actually for sale just not advertised. That last bit is just my observation from the various marinas and waterfront neighborhoods we've visited.

[longjonsilver]

ramblinrod:

You are free to your own opinions. Since you are apparently willing to take on all comers, so i have to conclude that you like to argue. Fine have it your way, but please respond to what i said not what you think i said.

From my post (as verified by your own response to me) we have

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

In the past 2 years, i have looked at about 30 Hughes 38s, and have observed boats from asking $50KCan to selling $150Can.

Notice selling for $150.00 and asking $50,000.00. i did NOT say what you imply in your response:

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

If you've looked at 30 Hughes 38's from $50K to $150K and have yet to find one to your liking, I can direct you to one for $20K with an installed Yanmar 3GM30F with only 30 hours on it. You won't offend the owner offering $17K, it's a nice engine with a questionable boat around it. I can assure you, if a Hughes 38 has sold for more than $50K in the last 5 years, it is some kind of special boat, or some dumb#$%# purchaser.

jon

[barnakiel]

Market collapsing or not, the observation above about 'silly upgrades' stands valid.

I have seen boats with new cushions and all liferafts outdated by 8 years. $800 vs. $8000.

The good news is a keen buyer can find and get what they want. The only reason I am now and then looking at 30-40' quality boats from late 70'ies that can be had for mickey mouse money right now.

Fine proper grp boats, with encapsulated lead ballast and proven seaworthiness going at below 30k. Add a new engine, new sails and new rigging, re-paint. 50k.

Collapsing or not, the buyer rulez. ;-)

b.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

ramblinrod:

You are free to your own opinions.

Yes, we all are.

Since you are apparently willing to take on all comers, so i have to conclude that you like to argue.

Just exercising my freedom to post original ideas and comment on those of others.

Fine have it your way, but please respond to what i said not what you think i said.

From my post (as verified by your own response to me) we have

Notice selling for $150.00 and asking $50,000.00. i did NOT say what you imply in your response:

jon

My mistake, when reading through you post quickly, I erroneously interpreted a "K" after $150 in "$150Can".

Notwithstanding, (some assumptions follow, actual numbers aren't important but the principles are) if you have looked at 30 examples of the same boat, and have yet to purchase, and you spent 5 hours investigating each example, and you value your (and the sellers time at say $50/hr), you have just wasted $15K of everyone's time, basically for nothing.

How logical is it to seek and hold out for perfection in an imperfect object?

Certainly, you could have put that time to much more productive use, purchasing one of the examples you investigated early on, making it what you want, and sailing the dang thing.

[JJ77]

Originally Posted by Polux

Data from:The sailing market 2016, state of the Industry and Q1 Market index 2015

http://www.sailingworld.com/sites/sa..._2015_data.pdf

page 51 shows total number of new sailboats sold,to an optimist it may look like there is going to be shortage in young used boats in a couple of years,but geez look at 2008 and compare to 2015....

[Island Time O25]

Speaking form my own experience only, I was just another tire kicker when apparently I was subconsciously not ready to own a boat. And would come up with every justification why that particular boat or this particular moment was not just right. Thus as I recall I passed a few good boats whose sellers were ready to deal if only I was ready...

But the moment I became ready I found what may not have been a perfect boat (certainly not for the majority of CF pundits) but it was a good boat for my goals and needs, and most definitely for my budget. And all the other important factors were falling into place. I know it may sound "new age-ish" but it was true for me. Not only did I find "the right for me" boat after a few years of tire kicking but I also found a place for it to stay on the hard for free during the required repairs. I also found a boatyard guy to do the repairs upon terms and conditions very much to our mutual satisfaction (as payment he got a nice older convertible in need of numerous cosmetic repairs which he was qualified and happy to do and I unloaded a car which I couldn't sell as is due to its dings and dangs which was costing me storage and insurance). I also found (without really actively looking) a great and reasonably priced mooring situation which I didn't even know existed in our area (but was hinted at during my tire kicking search) and that find was a product of an off hand remark by a guy who was going to do the repairs on my boat but couldn't due to his main job being transferred out of state. So even things/situations which would not click were still producing positive results.

What I am trying to say is that IMO most of us when seemingly wanting to plunge into something will do it when we are really ready. So to return to the original thread topic - it does not matter if the used boat market is collapsing or going through the roof. If one is not ready one will not find a deal in the collapsing market and if one is ready one will find what one needs even in the middle of the up market.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Speaking form my own experience only, I was just another tire kicker when apparently I was subconsciously not ready to own a boat. And would come up with every justification why that particular boat or this particular moment was not just right. Thus as I recall I passed a few good boats whose sellers were ready to deal if only I was ready...

But the moment I became ready I found what may not have been a perfect boat (certainly not for the majority of CF pundits) but it was a good boat for my goals and needs, and most definitely for my budget. And all the other important factors were falling into place. I know it may sound "new age-ish" but it was true for me. Not only did I find "the right for me" boat after a few years of tire kicking but I also found a place for it to stay on the hard for free during the required repairs. I also found a boatyard guy to do the repairs upon terms and conditions very much to our mutual satisfaction (as payment he got a nice older convertible in need of numerous cosmetic repairs which he was qualified and happy to do and I unloaded a car which I couldn't sell as is due to its dings and dangs which was costing me storage and insurance). I also found (without really actively looking) a great and reasonably priced mooring situation which I didn't even know existed in our area (but was hinted at during my tire kicking search) and that find was a product of an off hand remark by a guy who was going to do the repairs on my boat but couldn't due to his main job being transferred out of state. So even things/situations which would not click were still producing positive results.

What I am trying to say is that IMO most of us when seemingly wanting to plunge into something will do it when we are really ready. So to return to the original thread topic - it does not matter if the used boat market is collapsing or going through the roof. If one is not ready one will not find a deal in the collapsing market and if one is ready one will find what one needs even in the middle of the up market.

Bravo! Well said! IMHO, if one goes to a used boat vessel inspection without a cheque book and blank purchase and sale agreement in their pocket, they have not really committed to purchasing a vessel
and are "just looking". When someone asks to inspect a vessel
I have for sale, I ask, "Are you ready to purchase if you find the right boat, or just looking?" If just looking, we book the appointment when it suits my schedule, if ready to buy, it's to theirs.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Bravo! Well said! IMHO, if one goes to a used boat vessel inspection without a cheque book and blank purchase and sale agreement in their pocket, they have not really committed to purchasing a vessel
and are "just looking". When someone asks to inspect a vessel
I have for sale, I ask, "Are you ready to purchase if you find the right boat, or just looking?" If just looking, we book the appointment when it suits my schedule, if ready to buy, it's to theirs.

I did not mean as much financial as psychological readiness. Financially I was ready anytime after deciding that I've outgrown sailing club thing. But you're right if the potential buyer can't prove to the seller that he has the financial ability to at least stand by his best offer the buyer is not ready.

The last boat I sold, Oday25, was advertised on and off from late September to early June. Of the few inquiries that I had none got off their a$$es to come and see it in person while they could. Lot's of back and forth for sure but it didn't even get to the tire kicking stage by end of the season since the boat was in the water and there was no way to get to her in the Winter other than rowing a dinghy and I wasn't about to do that for a tire kicker in the middle of January. Anyway, the first person to come and see her in early June (all of May not even the tire kickers showed up) showed me exactly 1/2 of the asking price in cash and stated that his credit was not too good and that that's what he was working with and no more. It took me about 2secs to figure out that it's be easier for him to find another seller (even if not as a nice of a boat for this $$) than for me to find another ready and willing buyer. 5 mins later he was the owner of the boat.

PS I was really surprised by the lack of interest in a well founded already in the water decent brand name 25 footer with a not too ancient outboard and full set of relatively recent sails advertised for $3K. This does not bode well for the entry level sailboat market.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by JJ77

http://www.sailingworld.com/sites/sa..._2015_data.pdf

page 51 shows total number of new sailboats sold,to an optimist it may look like there is going to be shortage in young used boats in a couple of years,but geez look at 2008 and compare to 2015....

After 2008, meaning after the Crash, all consumer expensive goods come down in a sharp way, from houses to cars, airplanes and sailboats but the important point regarding sailboats is that while de European market is recovering, showing a slight increase almost each year, the sailboat American market went down and keep on sliding down with a bigger fall in 2015 (he have to wait to see what happened in 2016).

The same did not happen with the American motorboat market (more than 26') that after the crash is holding on an in some cases and sizes increasing.

As I am pretty sure that the economic recovery was not better in Europe than in the US what is happening is that Americans are buying more motorboats and less sailboats and part of those buyers had sailboats.

Do to that I don't think there will be a shortage of used almost new boats on the American market because the market itself is shrinking.

However because there are much more newer boats in Europe is probable that the prices ended up being lower on Europe than on US, also because most US new sailboats have become imported boats and that has a cost on the final boat price.

Yacht Sales In European Market Shows Moderate Gains in 2015

[a64pilot]

Fuel is relatively cheap, about half what is was just a few years ago.
Result is a boom in SUV sales and motor boats as well.
I have no idea why fuel is half of what it was, to me I can't determine a logical reason, but it is, how long will it stay that way , I have no idea.

From my perspective economics don't seem to be following logical trends

[olaf hart]

Many sailboats spend most of their cruising time motoring around, maybe the weather is too quiet or too strong, maybe they are meeting a schedule, maybe they can't be bothered.

We spend two months in the PNW this summer, there was no decent wind most of the time.

I can see the point of having a c dory up there.

Question, looking at used boats involves a fair investment in time and costs for a buyer even before survey.

How can you confirm a likely selling price before you have to commit time and money?

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by tms

I like both monohulls and cats. You get more living space plus a theoretical speed gain in catamarans, but the drawback has always been price. Now that very nice Cats are selling for $185k -$230k, it would be difficult to pay that much for a monohull.

I don't know how many monohulls over $150k will compete when catamarans are available.

The drawback only starts at the price. Running costs are double. Marina costs are higher, when you haul out you either need to find a yard with a big enough lift or hire a crane just to lift your boat. rigging costs are higher, and you loose that great feeling of heeling to speed. but you do get a lot more living space (and the slamming of the bridge deck in waves!!)