Comments on my Schooners blue water readiness?

[Tatheelrod22]

I promise to do my best to not be overly verbose however it’s not one of my strong suits🙂 I would love thoughts from experienced offshore sailors. I’d like to determine how well the design of my 40 Ft schooner is suited for extended cruising? Let me share specific information and then a few comments I think pertinent.

She is a “one of”, but built by a log time respected builder in Annapolis MD.
LOA 44’, LOD 40’, Beam 9’ 6”, Draft 4’ 8”, built 1979, major refit 2005, cored hull and deck. Wood sticks, booms, and gaffs. Teak decks installed during refit in a laborious well thought out way in 2005 refit. Minimal electronics however if I “head off” I would invest in radar, AiS, EPIRB, and at least laptop navigation. She has VHF and auto helm, and a 50 HP Yanmar installed in 2005.

I’d likely do the major passages singlehanded, so I will strongly consider self steering. Cruising grounds would surely be central and western Caribbean, possibly Bermuda, and on the bucket list is Nova Scotia.
I’ve sailed for 40 years however it’s all been coastwise. We’ve bareboat chartered numerous times, and I have my 50 Ton USCG Inland Captain License with sail auxiliary endorsement. I am 60 years old

My biggest concerns are:
1 Her narrow beam for 40 ft. She’s initially tender but does settle in rather nicely.
2 No lifelines. It would be a rather large investment to install, which I don’t mind considering, but aesthetically I’d feel bad about it. Is a thought out method for jacklines and a way to get back on board if overboard and single handed enough?

To state maybe the obvious plusses I know advantages are:
1 A schooners ability to consider multiple sail configurations, with no one sail insurmountable for a singlehander.
2. A classic overhang stern with an afterdeck and rather small cockpit.

I’ve attached some pics. In numerous ways she is my dream boat, however when purchased the cruising I describe here, and doing so full time weren’t factors in the decision to buy her. Now I’m ready. I’m ready to the point if I should find a more suitable boat then Ill do so. I WANT to think the narrow beam, minimal freeboard, and lack of lifelines are offset by the flexible sail flying options. Am I correct in this line of thinking?

I really look forward to the comments and thoughts zi hope this generates!

[billknny]

Do not sweat the narrow beam. While it is not the "modern" style, it is very seaworthy. What you lose in interior space you gain in having a VERY seakindly motion under way. So many modern boats pound the teeth out of the crew because of those wide, flat bottoms.

Initial stability (from a wide beam) is much less important offshore than ultimate stability. Really wide beams tend to be almost as stable upside down as right side up!

It's a beautiful boat, for sure. For me, it would be too wet in the cockpit to be comfortable--but I am older and more fragile than I used to be.

I am not a fan of a schooner for shorthanded work, but you know your boat and if you are fine with it, they you will know best.

When you invent a way to get yourself--singlehanded--back onboard a boat that is underway, do share that with the rest of use. I don't know of any reliable way to do that. If you THINK you have a way, test it with full crew aboard and the boat under full sail, making way. I think you'll find it really, really hard in most conditions.

The key is to rig your jacklines and tethers so if you fall you do not end up over the rail. It takes some doing, and some real discipline to always hook in safely.

[Don C L]

What a beauty! I agree the narrow beam is the old school way which I also happen to find most comfortable. The old narrow beams are proven seaworthy designs. Lifelines... do boats really need them? That's debatable. Singlehanding? I've sailed ON a schooner once. I think singlehanding one would be a real trick, but I wouldn't rule it out. Your boat has "Let's get going" written all over her!

[Jim Cate]

A pretty boat for sure, but when you let your sense of aesthetics override safety and convenience mandates, I must demur. Jack lines are great and even a near necessity, but a set of sturdy lifelines can save your butt when you scamper forward unclipped in... as you will at some time. I would not go offshore without them.

Now, the narrow beam, and the effect on initial stability... day sailing or short term cruising in a boat that sails at big heel angles is, for us, a non-starter. As I've posted before, Ann and I did coastal cruising in our Yankee 30, a boat that also sailed at big heel angles most of the time... and that was fine. Then we did a round trip to Hawaii, and learned that the big heel angles added a LOT to fatigue, and that, especially for short handed sailing, is a killer. From that experience, we sold the Yankee and bought a stiffer boat to go long term/off shore cruising.

I'm not experienced with schooner rigs myself, but others have noted that they are primarily designed for reaching. Not so good upwind or at big angles downwind, two points of sail that are useful... nay, essential for passage making. Not a deal breaker, but worth considering.

There have certainly been good voyages made by schoonermen, but that does not make the rig the best choice IMO. YMMV of course, but you did ask!

Jim

[MartinR]

Th narrow beam is mostly a plus regarding seaworthiness. There is much less inverse stability and the motion in seas is for smoother. That said, beating up with relatively high angles of heel is kind of fatiguing. Downwind you will not notice this much.

For lifelines, I sailed years without. On boats with bulwarks, as yours, this is OK. A good tethering system with jacklines is to be recommended.

I love schooner rigs. I have sailed them extensively. True, you loose a few degrees to windward, but you have more manageable sails. And reaching, nothing beats them. Sailing schooners is kind of an art, and you have to forget a little about normal sail trim

[Jim Cate]

There is much less inverse stability

Martin, could you please explain this statement? What is "inverse stability"?

Jim

[MartinR]

The boat being up and down! Hopefully nothing anybody will ever experience. Many wide beamed boats tend to be quite stable in this situation and need quite a push to right themselves again.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by MartinR

The boat being up and down! Hopefully nothing anybody will ever experience. Many wide beamed boats tend to be quite stable in this situation and need quite a push to right themselves again.

Ahhh! INVERTED stability, not inverse. Now I get it...

OK, but I don't much believe in the tales of modern cruising boats remaining inverted... as long as the keel is intact. Can you point us to any such events that are actually documented? Many authorities mention that in conditions severe enough to capsize a ballasted yacht the sea state is big enough to provide the necessary push to get off "bottom dead center".

Not a nice position for any boat, that's for sure.

Jim

[Tatheelrod22]

I love this forum! Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply. I have responses here that apply to different things from some of your posts, Plus a few more things I feel like sharing.
A few of you pointed out the actual pluses to such a narrow beam. It’s interesting that I really knew that but I suppose unknowingly have been influenced by all of what do you see being built to cruise now. Those are definitely the far end of the spectrum from my Schooner.
She is a bit of a wet ride which is what prompted owner number two (I’m number 3) to add the dog House. That does help some. At this point I think enough to want keeping it even though it makes going below a little more difficult, and I’m not sold on the look. Regarding the doghouse, cockpit configuration, low free board, etc., I wish there were a feasible way to have a Bimini top that also aesthetically fit with the boat. Neither I nor a reputable canvas person have been able to come up with something that works. The boom is just a little low to put in a Bimini that gives you practical space in the cockpit. I inherited with her an awning that works fine when at anchor, but it goes over the boom thus has to be removed every time you take a sail. The lack of a good solution on this concerns me because if you recall my intended cruising grounds for the most part are in tropical areas. The lack of the Bimini, the minimal amount of cabin space due to the narrow beam, and the awkward bending down to move from one Cabin to the next because of the bridgedeck are things my wife detests about this boat. If it were up to her we would have an island packet 350. I don’t suppose I would mind that however she also tells me she has no plans to ever get out of the side of land, and that she is happy to and would look forward to flying to meet me when I reach certain destinations and sail around that region on day sails and visit different anchorages. In numerous ways, I’ve always been a “Renaissance man.” Even though I know they are advantages to the production boats, I have a need to be different. It wasn’t intentional but not surprising that my last three boats including Stella Polaris were one of 19 built, one of 25 built, and now the only one built. Forgive me for rambling. I guess I needed to get that out :-)
Speaking of aesthetics one responder cautioned me to not let aesthetics get in the way of seaworthiness and safety decisions. I needed to hear that. You give me a thought I need to continue to contemplate as I work towards my goal. Having said that however in direct response to the lifeline question I posed, the responder who pointed out the very high bulwarks I have does make a great point. Another helpful point in that vein are the very wide decks I have.

Excellent points were also made about the increased level of fatigue when sailing at severe heel angles. That is something I must consider however with the exception of Bermuda and possibly Nova Scotia, I’m not looking at very long offshore passages with most of the other trips. It is interesting that just a couple of days ago I watched one of the many excellent YouTube sailing videos and a single handler from San Diego to Hawaii pointed out how sore and tired he gets from having to balance and brace himself almost all the time as a single hand on now that I think about it, a Rhodes 30 narrow beam boat. Even if one is in reasonably good shape before departure I suspect offshore sailing is a situation where you may be using the same muscles you try to work out in the gym and during your stretching, you are using them in a different way and you will notice it.

One responder said if I come up with a reliable method for getting back on board from a single-handed overboard situation to please share it. I will try it out and if it works I will definitely post the plan and pictures.

[Suijin]

Maintenance. If you've owned a big boat you know how much maintence is required. On that boat quadruple it. You're looking at several hours per day. It will be like painting a bridge. As soon as you finish youll have to start all over again. If that is your bag, go for it.

Single handing long passages. I would not do it in that boat I don't think. Too much middeck and foredeck work required. Maybe there are modifications you can make to reduce it, and maybe experience on the boat will make it tenable, but I look at that boat, think of a nightime squall, and grit my teeth.

Then again, you can mostly manage risk by choosing you're cruising grounds with the boat in mind.

It's always nice to have the prettiest boat in the harbor. But it's also nice to have spare time to actually go ashore wherever you are.

[jmh2002]

I totally agree on the maintenance point and I was going to mention it too.

Your boat is a beauty, but one heck of an amount of work, and that's just when sitting at the dock. Go off cruising, offshore sailing, and then the tropics, and the maintenance will go up 10 fold (and yes I have classic boat experience, and in the tropics too).

Even the fully professional crewed classic boats tend to also hire local day workers when in port to keep up with all of the work. Do you have the budget for that?

And on the sailing side, sorry to be direct (no offense intended), I know you mentioned that you have 'sailed' for 40 years, but how much of a real 'sailor' are you?

Some sailors, with a lot of experience, and knowing the boat well, generally from years aboard, could sail a schooner like that, with it's small flexible sail plan, single handed, with no furlers, etc, and make it look easy.

But not everyone can do that. In fact very few can actually do that. And age starts to play a part too.

Are you one of these people? Very experienced at sailing classics, single handed, to the point where you can do it with your eyes closed, and the boat has effectively become an extension of your mind and body?

If not (and I'm guessing not, given the question being asked), what you propose might be quite a big ask...

[slug]

Originally Posted by Tatheelrod22

I promise to do my best to not be overly verbose however it’s not one of my strong suits🙂 I would love thoughts from experienced offshore sailors. I’d like to determine how well the design of my 40 Ft schooner is suited for extended cruising? Let me share specific information and then a few comments I think pertinent.

She is a “one of”, but built by a log time respected builder in Annapolis MD.
LOA 44’, LOD 40’, Beam 9’ 6”, Draft 4’ 8”, built 1979, major refit 2005, cored hull and deck. Wood sticks, booms, and gaffs. Teak decks installed during refit in a laborious well thought out way in 2005 refit. Minimal electronics however if I “head off” I would invest in radar, AiS, EPIRB, and at least laptop navigation. She has VHF and auto helm, and a 50 HP Yanmar installed in 2005.

I’d likely do the major passages singlehanded, so I will strongly consider self steering. Cruising grounds would surely be central and western Caribbean, possibly Bermuda, and on the bucket list is Nova Scotia.
I’ve sailed for 40 years however it’s all been coastwise. We’ve bareboat chartered numerous times, and I have my 50 Ton USCG Inland Captain License with sail auxiliary endorsement. I am 60 years old

My biggest concerns are:
1 Her narrow beam for 40 ft. She’s initially tender but does settle in rather nicely.
2 No lifelines. It would be a rather large investment to install, which I don’t mind considering, but aesthetically I’d feel bad about it. Is a thought out method for jacklines and a way to get back on board if overboard and single handed enough?

To state maybe the obvious plusses I know advantages are:
1 A schooners ability to consider multiple sail configurations, with no one sail insurmountable for a singlehander.
2. A classic overhang stern with an afterdeck and rather small cockpit.

I’ve attached some pics. In numerous ways she is my dream boat, however when purchased the cruising I describe here, and doing so full time weren’t factors in the decision to buy her. Now I’m ready. I’m ready to the point if I should find a more suitable boat then Ill do so. I WANT to think the narrow beam, minimal freeboard, and lack of lifelines are offset by the flexible sail flying options. Am I correct in this line of thinking?

I really look forward to the comments and thoughts zi hope this generates!

If your boat was at Jabins I had a look

Clean and tidy
You don’t need much gear to be safe

You need a boat that is in good condition , all systems ready to go , all system operating to designed performances

These days the best safety device is the ability to see the weather.

Modern forcasts are very accurate, your window of safety is much larger

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OK, but I don't much believe in the tales of modern cruising boats remaining inverted... as long as the keel is intact. Can you point us to any such events that are actually documented? Many authorities mention that in conditions severe enough to capsize a ballasted yacht the sea state is big enough to provide the necessary push to get off "bottom dead center".

Not a nice position for any boat, that's for sure.

Jim

Jim,

You did qualify your question with "cruising boats", so I'll bet you are well aware of several capsizes in the 1996 Vendee Globe of Open 50/60 class boats. These monohulls proved to have excellent long term stability inverted, even in very rough seas, despite significant ballast ratios. I am not aware of any of them that self righted once they turtled.

Some of the most modern "cruising" designs are approaching the wildly exaggerated proportions of the Open 60s of that era. While they might not have reached the same L/B ratio (Yet!), they also have much shorter keels.

Of course, inverted stability has a lot of factors, including camber of the deck, and presence of a coachhouse.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ahhh! INVERTED stability, not inverse. Now I get it...

OK, but I don't much believe in the tales of modern cruising boats remaining inverted... as long as the keel is intact. Can you point us to any such events that are actually documented? Many authorities mention that in conditions severe enough to capsize a ballasted yacht the sea state is big enough to provide the necessary push to get off "bottom dead center".

Not a nice position for any boat, that's for sure.

Jim

I think that is really not a big problem. The risk of ending up upside down is very low, and in the end, once enough water leaks in, so that you get enough free surface area, any boat will right itself. That just means sooner or later.

Most modern boats have moderate inverted stability, but there are some where the stability curves scare me.

Here are 4 curves for relatively modern boats. 3 of these look normal, but the 4th. There is almost exactly the same maximum righting arm inverted or upright.

http://www.myhanse.com/uploads/20080..._stb_curve.JPG

There is a good comment in the thread about better keeping the boat upright. I wouldn't mind this with an experienced racing crew, but these are marketed as cruising yachts. The good thing is you will probably hardly notice if the keel falls off.

[jmh2002]

We seem to have ended up quite far off topic...