Cruising and Modern Conveniences- All is good with Universe

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Cool app. Never heard of it before now. Thanks .

It is a cool App - a couple months ago a fellow cruiser in Barra de Navidad (MX) introduced me to it. The 'secret sauce' is you can log your boat and track others if so desired. And you can create groups - about a quarter of the 250 boats on the Panama Posse are in a group; and there's another group for Pacific Mexico. These are just user-initiated groups. Very narrow interest, but CSSN data is shown on their overview chart (CSSN is the Noonsite-style organization that catalogs piracy and theft events in the Caribbean).We will be heading up the Caribbean next year and have concerns about safety along the Nicaraguan/Honduras coast. It's a better interface than their URL https://safetyandsecuritynet.org/

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

The available information is very skimpy, incomplete, and not anywhere near what you would find in any cruising guide to the area. I really don't see anything useful about it for around here. Plus, some of the information is just plain wrong, which is usually the case with crowd-sourced stuff.

Interesting. The data along Mexico and into Central America has been useful. I only detected one very questionable input - a cruiser fouled his anchor and hired a local diver to free it. Diver said there was a car in the bottom which had snared the anchor. Cruiser was clipped for $300 USD which is a stupid number so I have to wonder about the accuracy of the footnote.

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

The available information is very skimpy, incomplete, and not anywhere near what you would find in any cruising guide to the area. I really don't see anything useful about it for around here. Plus, some of the information is just plain wrong, which is usually the case with crowd-sourced stuff.

From full time cruising heading towards 2 decades that is just plain wrong in my experience. NFL & navily have transformed getting cruising info, the known places will have many reviews instead of just one out of date opinion in a cruising guide. Which will at best a year out of date the day it's published, big changes which effect cruisers will be near instant in NFL. It's self crrecting along the way as things change. Plus if there's another boat in the anchorage you're heading to you can send a message & ask, quite a few times now I've had messages sent from boats a week away checking what it's like now & always nice to help fellow cruisers.

That's been my experience anyway, some useful stuff in cruising guides & nice to have both but little day to day practicalities. Guidebooks aren't the only game in town anymore, thank goodness

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

and I don't know anyone who bathes in salt water.

*raises my hand.. "I do."

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by CyKlop

*raises my hand.. "I do."

Bet you're not in Newfoundland waters .

[lifeofreilly57]

For local cruising much of the extras aren't needed.
For long distance cruising it's not required but it sure is nice.
I learned traditional navigation 40 years ago before the advent of affordable electronics, I still carry paper charts and an emergency sextant, just in case.
Although I have an entire suite of modern electronics, 1000 watts of solar, a 6 kw generator, lithium batteries and a water maker I'm only one lightning strike away from pulling out the charts and the traditional navigation tools.
I still keep a log thats updated every hour when cruising offshore to record position and conditions, should the electronics fail I know where I am and can chart where I need to go.
I do like the modern conveniences but I do like to have a back up, I've only had electronics fail once a number of years ago, but was totally stress free since I had already laid out a route on paper charts with my #2 pencil.
In our cruising experience we've known a number of people who've had lightning strikes at sea, pop up squalls can wreak havoc with your plans, there's a lot of energy there, and it always seems to happen at 3am.
Don't ask why, but in my experience things always go sideways at 3am when the Admiral just got off watch.

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Bet you're not in Newfoundland waters .

Oh HELL no! BC waters here And, I admit, it's a very fast wash!

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

've only had electronics fail once a number of years ago, but was totally stress free since I had already laid out a route on paper charts with my #2 pencil..

Here's the question, though... You've drawn the pretty lines on the chart and now it's time to take a nap and let second watch handle the boat at 2am.

1. Do they know where on the line the boat is
2. Can they continue to update the boat's position and navigate properly in the dark?

Of course at turnover, you briefed them so they know where you think they are. How well are they going to hold course over the next 3-4 hours? How much are you going to be set or sped up or slowed down. No Autopilot since the electronics are down, right? So hand-steering all the way... and keeping an accurate log. Oh, how are they going to get boat speed to know distance traveled. I doubt anyone is keeping a knotted line handy (I actually do have a spring-loaded speed indicator aboard, but not because I thought of this scenario.. i just was curious about the gadget!)

If near-shore, how well are they going to know where the obstacles and hazards are?

All without the electronics in your mentioned scenarios... in the dark... either without land references (blue water) or else close to hazards (inshore). Some cruisers this isn't a problem. They do short, one-watch, day trips hopscotching down a coast and then my question isn't as important. For those of us doing longer trips, it becomes imperative.

Or you can have a plan B, C, D, and E for when electronics go belly up such as the use of cell phones with Navionics on it, stand alone GPS units, etc.

I'm certainly not advocating for throwing away our charts, binoculars, and hand-bearing compasses, but we also need to be realistic about things too.

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by CyKlop

*raises my hand.. "I do."

Me too

Though freshwater rinse usually. Normally after a quick 10 minutes giving a bit of coppercoat a scrub, doing a little bit most days means not such a big deal keeping it clean. Not in Newfoundland though

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CyKlop

Here's the question, though... You've drawn the pretty lines on the chart and now it's time to take a nap and let second watch handle the boat at 2am.

1. Do they know where on the line the boat is
2. Can they continue to update the boat's position and navigate properly in the dark?

Of course at turnover, you briefed them so they know where you think they are. How well are they going to hold course over the next 3-4 hours? How much are you going to be set or sped up or slowed down. No Autopilot since the electronics are down, right? So hand-steering all the way... and keeping an accurate log. Oh, how are they going to get boat speed to know distance traveled. I doubt anyone is keeping a knotted line handy (I actually do have a spring-loaded speed indicator aboard, but not because I thought of this scenario.. i just was curious about the gadget!)

If near-shore, how well are they going to know where the obstacles and hazards are?

All without the electronics in your mentioned scenarios... in the dark... either without land references (blue water) or else close to hazards (inshore). Some cruisers this isn't a problem. They do short, one-watch, day trips hopscotching down a coast and then my question isn't as important. For those of us doing longer trips, it becomes imperative.

Or you can have a plan B, C, D, and E for when electronics go belly up such as the use of cell phones with Navionics on it, stand alone GPS units, etc.

I'm certainly not advocating for throwing away our charts, binoculars, and hand-bearing compasses, but we also need to be realistic about things too.

Offshore one can dead reckon from a pilot chart which gives a lot of info and follow an adequate route to close ones destination, as for coastal.. a chart and compass is/can be adequate using the Cocked Hat method for distances from land then plot courses accordingly to navigate past hazards.
Paper charts give lots of info.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

…..
BTW, off the beaten path, anchorages are not crowded. Most have refrigeration (so the beer is cold), and I don't know anyone who bathes in salt water.

I recall that you are cruising the Great Lakes, so doesn’t seem like there would be much saltwater to bath in.

Edit: So from your blog, I see that the boat is laying in NL. Of course being NL there’s plenty of salt water, but it gets hard in the winter and almost hard during the summer so I can see that not a lot of people want to be taking baths with that salt water.

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Offshore one can dead reckon from a pilot chart which gives a lot of info and follow an adequate route to close ones destination, as for coastal.. a chart and compass is/can be adequate using the Cocked Hat method for distances from land then plot courses accordingly to navigate past hazards.
Paper charts give lots of info.

Yes, I know. I have a few pacific crossings already under my belt. The question is not if it _can_ be done. It's if the people are _capable_ of doing it. Assume a crossing is, mmm... 20 days and you're making 150 miles per day. Assume 1/2 the time, the boat is 10 degrees off course -- the 1/2 time that you're not there monitoring and therefore don't know about it.

You're now 260 miles to one side or the other of your intended position (sin of 10 degrees * 3000 miles / 2 since it's only 1/2 the time) IF your rate of advancement is correct. Add in waves so that your ground speed is not what you expected and the error grows. You are definitely NOT going to see the Hawaiian islands at that distance, and no pilot chart is going to help you.

So you pull out your sextant and take a noon sight. Great. How long has it been since you did that on a moving ship and your emergency sextant has been sitting in storage and is in what shape of calibration? Great, you know your latitude and turn south... but are the islands east or west of you? You have an accurate, mechanical, (remember we're postulating that ALL electronics have died and therefore so have your time references if they're electronic) time piece to be able to figure out longitude? So you head southwards assuming you're at roughly the right latitude. However, because of the angle, you're actually about 23 miles short of Hawaii... and if you accidentally drift eastwards over the next 2 days of travel south, your error is increasing.

Mind you, I admit the above is worse case scenario with everything going exactly wrong. In reality, if you have 3000 miles to go when your electronics fail, you're going to turn around and head EAST. You're not far and the N. American continent is pretty difficult to miss If you're more than half way out, then the error you might have is, correspondingly smaller. etc. etc.

Maybe you do have all the instruments, kept adequately maintained and set properly to do the above. Personally, I love celestial navigation and I do keep my skills up. I still wouldn't want to stake my life on it.

Sure, there are procedures that you could take along the way to help reduce the error such as taking a noon sight every day and adjusting your course to keep you approximately at the right latitude for Hawaii (which is actually a pretty big target).

yes, I love charts. I love planning, penciling in rhumb lines, etc. I loved it when I flew, I love it when I sail. I love keeping a log and ded reckoning my position and then checking my ded reckoned position against the GPS. I find it fun and it appeals to my sense of connection to the mariners of bygone eras. I teach all my students how to use charts and hopefully impart the joy of them to my pupils. I spend a lot more than the reccommended time talking about the electronic navigation systems to them so that they don't treat it as a push-the-button-and-go.

But for people to just off handedly make comments about the superiority of charts is kind of wrong-headed in my opinion. Both methods have drawbacks, potentially fatal ones. That one has been around a lot longer than the other is NOT a point in its favour (nor against it). Many voyages have been made using charts. Many MORE have been made with electronics.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I recall that you are cruising the Great Lakes, so doesn’t seem like there would be much saltwater to bath in.

Edit: So from your blog, I see that the boat is laying in NL. Of course being NL there’s plenty of salt water, but it gets hard in the winter and almost hard during the summer so I can see that not a lot of people want to be taking baths with that salt water.

Yes, I left the Great Lakes seven years ago. Since then I've been plying the waters of Newfoundland. Not a lot of salt water bathing to be had here, although it is possible.

While on the Great Lakes I spent most of my time on Lake Superior. We didn't do a lot of fresh water bathing up there either, because the water was so-damn cold.

In both locations, we would sometimes seek out an inland lake or waterfall. Now that was luxury!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CyKlop

But for people to just off handedly make comments about the superiority of charts is kind of wrong-headed in my opinion. Both methods have drawbacks, potentially fatal ones. That one has been around a lot longer than the other is NOT a point in its favour (nor against it). Many voyages have been made using charts. Many MORE have been made with electronics.

Electronic navigation is just using digital versions of paper charts with gps positioning.. so no offhand comments about chart superiority, paper or otherwise.
Just stating what can and has been done in emergencies.. if one has the schooling in navigation and a cool head.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Electronic navigation is just using digital versions of paper charts with gps positioning.. so no offhand comments about chart superiority, paper or otherwise.
Just stating what can and has been done in emergencies.. if one has the schooling in navigation and a cool head.
Sans sextant..

[Kettlewell]

From full time cruising heading towards 2 decades that is just plain wrong in my experience. NFL & navily have transformed getting cruising info, the known places will have many reviews instead of just one out of date opinion in a cruising guide.

Haven't used it, but just looking at what NFL provides for southern NE many popular places have very little information, and some have none. For example, Tarpaulin Cove on Naushon Island is one of the most beautiful anchorages around, and it is heavily used in the summer--zip info on NFL. Vineyard Haven Harbor is one of the busiest on Martha's Vineyard, and so many cruisers go through the Lagoon Pond Bridge to anchor in Lagoon Pond, especially when weather from the north is threatening. Zip info on the bridge (on a limited schedule) or anchorages in the Lagoon, the best anchorages in the area. Then look at Newport. The anchorage is sorta marked, but in the real world the area is delineated by buoys you have to stay within. Then the yacht club near where you dinghy ashore is misnamed--it is the famous Ida Lewis Yach Club. On Cuttyhunk there is no mention of the anchorage in Cuttyhunk Pond, and the one anchor on the chart is a possible anchorage, but very little information to go on. There are other better places to anchor. Then look at New Bedford. Yes, some moorings are available from Popes Island Marina, but there are several other places that rent moorings and there are town moorings that can be rented--no info. I could go on and on. Just basic info. not there or very skimpy.