Dangerous skippers, and not wanting to say anything.

[Sea Dreaming]

Originally Posted by Iaangus

Poor communication can ruin friendships, marriages, careers, and dreams. This guy doesn't know how to sail and doesn't know how to ask for help. He is probably getting pissed because you know so much and don't tell him anything. You on the other hand know how to sail, he knows very little and he is not asking for advice and that is pissing you off. It sounds to me like much planning and coordinating needs to be done before heading to the fuel dock. He may believe the line handlers on the dock are the experts and already know what to do with them when tossed a line. IF you want to help him maybe discuss these things before hand if he is receptive or offer to help him find somebody that does want to teach him. If he is not cooperative to discussing, planning and learning I'd say wash your hands of him. Have you offered to let him ride on a properly sailed sailboat?

I agree for the most part. Except the op was offering advice but perhaps to subtly.
It does not sound like the op is interested in being teacher, but I would skip the advice and get right down to friendly frank talk.
"Look mate, Ive been trying to let you gind your own way. I dont want to assume you dont know what you are doing. But its becoming clear you are a little in over your head..."

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

I agree for the most part. Except the op was offering advice but perhaps to subtly.
It does not sound like the op is interested in being teacher, but I would skip the advice and get right down to friendly frank talk.
"Look mate, Ive been trying to let you gind your own way. I dont want to assume you dont know what you are doing. But its becoming clear you are a little in over your head..."

I don't know the OP's underlying relationship but I would not expect that conversation to end well if they aren't best buds with a history of being able to tell each other hard truths.

Not saying, your comments may not be dead on true but how you present them has a big impact on how they are taken.

[LakeSuperior]

One line of thought may be that life is too short to deal with fools. You only have so many minutes in a lifetime and there is so much to do. You offered experience, a hand, and your time at no cost, exceedingly generous in my book. You can't make people act right. Your conscience is clear why mess around? I wouldn't invest one more molecule of effort on this situation.

[ranger58sb]

FW, a thought:


Consider inviting Skippy onto your boat. Do everything -- fuel, etc. -- that he's failed at on his boat. Very obviously tell Skippy what to do, and then afterwards tell him why you told him. Every time you do something yourself, tell Skippy why you did that, why you did it that way. For example, tossing a line to a dockhand: very vocally tell the dockhand what you want him to do with it. Then tell Skippy why you did that, and what would have happened had you not issued clear instructions. And so forth. Teaching by example.


I doubt it's worth the effort, but might make you feel better. I'm usually OK with letting Darwin succeed.


OTOH, I left a note -- purposely composed and edited to be non-threatening -- to our dock neighbor once. He can't see well while backing into his slip, so had a tendency to hit us or the boat on the other side. The note suggested one and only one improvement he might consider (so it was short), and then included an offer for more involved help if he was interested. Says he's interested in follow-up, but then of course never has time for that. At least he hasn't hit our boat since then.


-Chris

[Sea Dreaming]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I don't know the OP's underlying relationship but I would not expect that conversation to end well if they aren't best buds with a history of being able to tell each other hard truths.

Not saying, your comments may not be dead on true but how you present them has a big impact on how they are taken.

You cant! Be friendly and honest but if someone gets upset, nothing you can do about it. And, its not your fault. No need to take responsibility for others thoughts or actions.

[MarkSF]

Someone needs to go on some ASA courses. Also get some training on handling the boat under power.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by four winds

........Sorry for all this, so many words. Not sure I even have a question for the members.

Totally understand.....
-You tried to help.
-Felt a bit responsible for this Darwinian Candidate.
-Needed to cleanse yourself of emotional investment in this, by dumping the problem amongst your Peers at CF

That's what were here for! .

Seriously... You can lead a seahorse to water, but you can't make him think.

[AD28]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

One line of thought may be that life is too short to deal with fools. You only have so many minutes in a lifetime and there is so much to do. You offered experience, a hand, and your time at no cost, exceedingly generous in my book. You can't make people act right. Your conscience is clear why mess around? I wouldn't invest one more molecule of effort on this situation.

bingo. Plus you may invite trouble into your own life, ergo injury or liability...

platitudes:
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

[four winds]

Many thanks to all that have taken the time to read my verbose post and respond. I appreciate that and have read through them twice. You all seem to understand these scenarios well.

I would clarify a couple of points. When I wrote, "talked him into and offshore hop", I realized that was misleading but rather a quick intro statement to the paragraph.

In fact, we were heading in the same direction and I talked about my offshore planning and why, and he talked about his inshore planning and why. Eventually he asked if he could join me offshore. I figured he was overdue to give it a go and having another boat along might help him go for it.

In the months before this I traveled with a young couple who were learning the coastal ways. They were a sponge for knowledge and learned much in a few weeks. I enjoyed helping them, we became friends. Eventually they decided they had it figured out and were less receptive to my tutoring. They went on without me and frankly I took it too personally. We're still friends, but I'm not really looking to make friends any longer.

I did sail on this skippers boat and he on mine. Ranger42 described well how I go about things when having people who want to learn aboard. Have many hours doing so over the last few years. I enjoy it. I was a teacher for several years and in the military I was always tasked to help the new shop arrivals with OJT on fighters and bombers in a tech field.

This was always with people wanting to learn. It makes a big difference. I've been treading lightly in this case because of an apparent lack of even a realization there is something to learn. It's perplexing. But it doesn't upset me as someone suggested. I left anger behind a couple of decades ago.

I just feel I can't help this particular skipper.

But, after sleeping on it and the responses here I don't intend to stop trying to help others. Not sure I could if I tried.

Thanks for your wise counsel everyone.

[four winds]

Ha! Gotta go, he just texted to ask me to come help him with something on his boat.

Like I said, he's an OK guy. But I'll try not to get underway with him again. And he's leaving soon.

[markpierce]

Too much boat. The fellow needs a smaller boat, if any.

[akprb]

Be prepared for this to become a LONG thread :-)

Read Crucial Conversations and if you find our website the entry entitled "docking".

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conve.../dp/1469266822

If you care about this man (and you seem to be a good, competent and caring person) you have to set him down and talk to him honestly. This is an opportunity to do something which I sense is very out of your comfort zone.

Do it for him, do it for yourself, do it for the rest of us who may be injured by him :-)

[Sojurnr]

If he's doing a reasonable job of maintaining the boat, I say leave him be. Soon enough he will give up the dream which is scaring the bejeepers out of him and someone like me who is in the market will get a good buy on a lightly used blue water cruiser.

;-)

JK

[akprb]

I was recently asked to sail to the Bahamas and back on a very large cat to help the new owner figure her out. We did this over 24 hours.

He asked me (invitation) to be "brutally honest". That is the key, he asked.

After a VERY adventuresome 24 hours we parted company after an honest debriefing at the dock followed by a detailed email with action steps. This included not only systems that had to be addressed but also crew dynamic. I was "brutality honest".

Since then our friendship has improved. I respect that he had the courage to ask and ears to hear (not easily at first but truth tends to open them). He respected my feedback and over the course of a few months he addressed many of the items we discussed and would call to let me know they had been.

He's selling the boat now but not out of a sense of "failure" or the realization it was too much boat. I think more out of the truth that it's a massive financial investment and not being used as his family envisioned. After our brief time together he did go on to have a few adventures in the Bahamas (safely) and can confidently check the "I sailed my own monster cat".

You have a real opportunity here and given what I gleaned from your post you have this mans respect at least.

Great question you posted and well written.

[w1651]

I'm a newby and do need advice. I make mistakes and try to learn from them and still have a hard time remembering everything. But a good word and some advice is always welcome. Just don't talk down to me and it will be well received. With that said.
You can't tell someone something when they don't want to hear you. And unfortunately in this world everyone knows everything about every subject.