Day Shapes while Anchoring

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

.

And re dim anchor lights as reported by simi: we see less and less usage of the dread garden LED lamps and more and more proper, bright LED anchor lights, at least here in Tassie... a great improvement in safety.

Jim

Yes, meant to say many are dim, certainly not most.
But have come across several with none

Almost put our 65 tonne through the side of one a few years back coming into an out of the way anchorage late at night with heavy rain.
No lights so no boats
If I hadn't put on our deck lights at the last minute to drop anchor we would have got him for sure.
Big prop walk was his friend that night.

He did get woken up by horns and an earful of rude words from the anchor wench
And slunk off into the rain early that morning, hope he got the message.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

There have been two other benefits that have been discussed in this thread - of course they are of benefit to others than oneself, but surely you have a sense of community responsibility?

I'm curious if you find the ball-diamond-ball dayshape equally pointless? If not, how is that different to the anchor ball?

Sorry, what were those benefits? Missed them. As far as anyone has shown, these dayshapes make no measurable difference to actual outcomes.

What’s the “ball-diamond-ball” dayshape? Do you mean the motoring one? Yes, of course. Equally useless.

ADD: ah, the restricted maneuvering… yup, useless for the vessels we’re discussing. Probably useful for larger craft, just like the others.

As I keep saying, if it makes you feel better, then hoist away. Over here no one will care, and few will even notice. It’s clearly not needed — unless you have data to suggest otherwise.

But if I were in a location where it was the norm, I’d hoist one. I’m may not agree with it, but when I travel in foreign lands, I try and respect local customs.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by chrisr

well, to elaborate : there are 2 thoughts ;

- is an anchor light legally required under colregs when on a mooring ? i believe not but others may disagree

- is displaying an anchor light when on a mooring a good idea ? i can see how it might be, in some circumstances - but could also confuse folk ie a boat looking to anchor might see the anchor light and decide to anchor there as well - only to wake up in the morning anchored in the middle of a mooring field or such

it seems to me to be almost the reverse of the day shape, which is legally required even tho most seem to agree is of no benefit

btw, if you display your anchor light at night on the mooring, do you also display the day shape ? does anyone else ?

cheers,

In Canada, there is no legal or functional difference between a moored boat and an anchored boat. So yes, let your little light shine!

[Jim Cate]

btw, if you display your anchor light at night on the mooring, do you also display the day shape ? does anyone else ?

I blush to admit that while we often do fly the ball on a mooring, today it is not there, and it has been missing since last weekend when we returned from a sail and I failed to hoist it. And to be honest, there are zero other boats (out of ~75 on moorings here) that ever display the ball. However, there are a few folks around who do when at anchor, and I believe that the number is slowly increasing (no hard data, though).

Now, as to your poor confused chap who anchors near us because, having seen our anchor light he thinks it is an open anchorage... if he anchors without looking around to see if there are any obstructions (how could anyone do this?) having seen our light, do you not think he would do the same if we were unlit? And if he does look around, won't he see the other moored boats? I don't see this as a reasonable concern myself.

Anyhow, I feel that the advantage of being lit outweighs any disadvantage and will continue to do so. And I will continue to fly the ball when at anchor, even if I agree that it has no practical use as a safety factor. I'm convinced that here in Oz it will improve the outcome in the event of a contested liability situation after a collision, and that alone makes it worthwhile to me. I don't much care if others do so, unlike my feelings about anchor lights!

Hope you are having a good time in FP!

Jim

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

And that's exactly why you should display the anchor ball. No LE agency is likely to come into an anchorage and write all the boats with no ball, it's just not worth the time. But if some idiot hits your anchored boat, his lawyer is going to find any way to weasel out of responsibility. Proving the absence of the ball couldn't possibly have contributed to the wreck won't help. It's a violation and part of the blame will be apportioned. Could reduce the damage payout from the idiot by 50 percent. Your insurance could claim negligence on your part and deny any payment. All for lack of a $20 ball and 30 seconds to deploy it.

Neither anchor ball, nor anchor light, are required in a designated anchorage. I think USCG often deliberately lets it slide in a customary anchorage that is not actually designated as an anchorage. That doesn't make it legal, though. But in a designated anchorage, you can forget about the ball and light, if you wish, and still be 100% legal.

I have, and use, appropriate lights and shapes for several reasons. First, it is the law, and the right thing to do. Second, spent too much time on ships, and we ALWAYS hoist the anchor ball or switch on the anchor lights as soon as anchor is on the bottom, and good habits die hard. Third, just good common sense to make it very clear what you are up to, to other boats that might pass by. Fourth, the liability issue and the cunningly evil lawyers who know all the tricks to make you PAY.

I'm not saying a person is morally bankrupt and utterly irredeemable if he doesn't hoist an anchor ball or a motoring cone or whatevah. That's on you. You aren't fooling ME by hiding your anchor ball! Your boat. Do it like you feel it, as long as it doesn't affect me and mine.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry, what were those benefits? Missed them.

Posts 45 and 80. I reiterated that second one at post 105.
Sorry you don't understand the RAM signal, or see the utility in that being obvious to you. Personally I find them useful, but then I like to follow colregs.

[Kelkara]

[QUOTE=chrisr;3697753]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

As far as I understand the COLREGS, a boat on a mooring is considered a boat at anchor, but regardless ...

can you please clarify for me where in colregs it mentions 'moorings' ? fyi rule 30 talks about a vessel at anchor NOT a vessel at anchor or mooring

similarly rule 3 definitions state that a vessel is underway unless at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground. again, no mention of 'mooring' but made fast to the shore is closest

cheers,

As you point out according to rule 3 if a moored boat is neither "at anchor" nor "made fast to the shore" then it would be classed as "underway", which would be ridiculous, so it must be one or the other ... maybe your moorings are different than they are here, where they are out of reach of shore, and consist of a big anchoring device with a chain and float attached ... so made fast to the bottom maybe but definitely not the shore, and anchored, just not using an anchor carried by the attached boat. But IANAL so argue away, but please put a light on your boat anyway, why would you not want it to be seen by a passing boat?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Posts 45 and 80. I reiterated that second one at post 105.
Sorry you don't understand the RAM signal, or see the utility in that being obvious to you. Personally I find them useful, but then I like to follow colregs.

Sorry… but I see no functional benefit to these dayshapes when used on boats of our calibre. But if you do, then go for it.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Heck, I'd show one even while anchored in these mythical "special anchorages" everyone talks about. I've yet to find during my travels, but I'd have the light on there as well.

Kiddin' ... Right ?

https://scdhec.gov/sites/default/fil...Anchorages.pdf

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry… but I see no functional benefit to these dayshapes when used on boats of our calibre. But if you do, then go for it.

I pretty much agree with you mike ... but I'm going to throw another hypothetical at you ...

Last summer I was passed by a freighter going down Grenville Channel (45 miles long and 0.5-1.0 mile wide - not a normal freighter route, but there he was anyway) and one by one the pilot radioed every small boat that appeared in front of him, politely suggesting that they should stay to the side of the channel until he passed. Now that particular channel is too deep to anchor, so everyone was underway, but in the hypothetical situation with anchored boats in the mix too, I think the pilot would be grateful to know not to waste his time worrying about the anchored boats. Now I don't know anything about piloting a large vessel, maybe the dayshapes are invisible, but so far nobody on this thread who does know has spoken up.

While I'm pondering this ... I wonder if the difference in attitude between Europe and North America is partly to do with language. Here at least all ships pilots and most yotties speak English as a first language making all the radio calls easy.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry, what were those benefits? Missed them. As far as anyone has shown, these dayshapes make no measurable difference to actual outcomes.

What’s the “ball-diamond-ball” dayshape? Do you mean the motoring one? Yes, of course. Equally useless.

The benefit is for somone to know there is no such thing as a "ball-diamond" day shape.

Aside from finding out what a special anchorage is you might want to review day shapes as well.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I can’t believe this thread persists......

And yet you have persisted in posting in this thread numerous times after this observation

[slipaway]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

In Canada, there is no legal or functional difference between a moored boat and an anchored boat. So yes, let your little light shine!

Same in the US where the USCG has interpreted a vessel moored to a mooring of some type and anchoring to be functionally the same. They do provide an option regarding light display:

"A “vessel at anchor” includes a vessel made fast to one or more mooring buoys or other similar device attached to the ocean floor. Such vessels may be lighted as a vessel at anchor in accordance with Rule 30, or may be lighted on the corners in accordance with Rule 30(h)-(l)." https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigati...gamated#rule30

See 33 CFR 90.5 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-3...0/section-90.5

[chrisr]

[QUOTE=Kelkara;3697834]

Originally Posted by chrisr

As you point out according to rule 3 if a moored boat is neither "at anchor" nor "made fast to the shore" then it would be classed as "underway", which would be ridiculous, so it must be one or the other ... maybe your moorings are different than they are here, where they are out of reach of shore, and consist of a big anchoring device with a chain and float attached ... so made fast to the bottom maybe but definitely not the shore, and anchored, just not using an anchor carried by the attached boat. But IANAL so argue away, but please put a light on your boat anyway, why would you not want it to be seen by a passing boat?

therein lies the rub

while there may not be much actual difference between 'anchored' and 'on mooring', it seems to me there is a world of legal difference eg insurance allows unattended / dormant boats on mooring but not on anchor.

as regards colregs,i think it's a big stretch to assume such means to treat boats on moorings as anchored, when this is not specified. interpreting the rules can be pretty simple and imho the rules mean what they say, so if col regs meant to cover vessels on moorings, why wouldn't it says this ?

as far as i know there is no legal jurisdiction anywhere that requires a vessel on a mooring to display anchor signal (day or night)

note that here i'm really only talking about the legal situation. there is no denying that in some cases displaying anchor signals while on mooring can be a good idea.

cheers,

[IslandHopper]

[QUOTE=chrisr;3697866]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

therein lies the rub

while there may not be much actual difference between 'anchored' and 'on mooring', it seems to me there is a world of legal difference eg insurance allows unattended / dormant boats on mooring but not on anchor.

as regards colregs,i think it's a big stretch to assume such means to treat boats on moorings as anchored, when this is not specified. interpreting the rules can be pretty simple and imho the rules mean what they say, so if col regs meant to cover vessels on moorings, why wouldn't it says this ?

as far as i know there is no legal jurisdiction anywhere that requires a vessel on a mooring to display anchor signal (day or night)

note that here i'm really only talking about the legal situation. there is no denying that in some cases displaying anchor signals while on mooring can be a good idea.

cheers,

Queensland does for one (light)

https://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Safety/Navigation-lights

All boats at anchor or attached to a registered buoy mooring must show an all-round white light.