Do I need a lawyer with Amel contract?

[acunningham]

Originally Posted by Telesail

risks of the company becoming insolvent after receiving deposit but before delivery etc

I asked Amel about this when I first approached them back in 2017. They can offer protection against this through a third party finance company, at extra cost of course. Basically, you're buying an insurance policy against Amel going bankrupt. Considering Amel's backlog of orders, and hence the number of following customers they're taking staged payments from, I decided that the risk was worth taking without such insurance.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by acunningham

There's nothing complex in the Amel contract. It's seven pages in total. There are no references to other parts of the contract, or (except for the guarantee part) external documents. It's just the following, written in plain English and French:

* Your name and contact details.
* The model of boat you've ordered.
* The expected delivery date and place.
* The price.
* The dates payments are due.
* The dates you need to inform Amel which options you want by.
* That you agree to Amel using your personal data as necessary.
* What's provided with the delivery of the boat.
* That you agree to have insurance in place on delivery.
* That if you don't pay on time, Amel may charge you for storage, and if you still don't pay Amel may terminate the sale.
* Details of the two year guarantee, and which items are excluded. This comprises the largest part of the contract. This part references various parts of the French civil code, and is the only part of the contract that references external sources. The sections of the civil code referenced are provided, including an English translation.
* That the boat is delivered without VAT being paid, and you agree to pay the VAT if applicable.

It's a normal contract for Europe. It's all very straightforward, and perfectly understandable to any intelligent person. It has none of the fancy incomprehensible legalise that contracts in the USA tend to have. The word 'whereas' appears nowhere in it.

Hahahaha, I just renewed my phone and the contract was about 3x the number of pages here 🤪😊🤣😂

[leboyd]

It’s not always an issue with what’s in a contract, but what’s not in a contract. As was mentioned, what if the company goes bankrupt? What’s happens if the delivery slips by a year, maybe because their building is destroyed by fire or in the last step of loading your boat on a trailer the equipment fails and the boat is totaled? There could be issues that are completely out of Amel’s control that could affect you. It’s not that they want to cheat you or deceive you, but what happens?

The items listed as in the contract looks more like a term sheet than a sales contract.

Each person has to decide whether to bring their own attorney into a contractual relationship.

[acunningham]

Originally Posted by leboyd

It’s not always an issue with what’s in a contract, but what’s not in a contract. As was mentioned, what if the company goes bankrupt? What’s happens if the delivery slips by a year, maybe because their building is destroyed by fire or in the last step of loading your boat on a trailer the equipment fails and the boat is totaled? There could be issues that are completely out of Amel’s control that could affect you. It’s not that they want to cheat you or deceive you, but what happens?

Then normal French consumer protections, which are pretty strong, apply. You're unlikely to be able to contractually negotiate anything stronger. If your boat is accidentally destroyed prior to delivery, no amount of contract clauses are going to bring it back to ship shape.

[acunningham]

I notice that those advocating using a lawyer are located in common law countries. Do bear in mind that the French legal system is a civil code system, which works very differently, and where there is considerably less work for lawyers. A French contract to rent a house or apartment is typically two pages long. The law takes care of all the gritty details. The same contract in a common law country could be more than ten times the length because everything must be specified in the contract.

[Andre Nordic]

Originally Posted by acunningham

Then normal French consumer protections, which are pretty strong, apply. You're unlikely to be able to contractually negotiate anything stronger. If your boat is accidentally destroyed prior to delivery, no amount of contract clauses are going to bring it back to ship shape.

First problem is that you are not provided with a complete technical specification, only general pricelist. Next problem that starting with serial number 48, Amel began to produce boats of a completely different quality.

In your contract, the court of the city of La Rochelle is indicated as the place for considering disputes. French lawyers later explained to me that 80% of the production of French yachts is located in La Rochelle, all these people are one big party and that you have no chance of winning a case against the local industry there.

In a few days, I will prepare a detailed description of this story and publish it on all available forums and social networks.

[acunningham]

Originally Posted by Andre Nordic

In a few days, I will prepare a detailed description of this story and publish it on all available forums and social networks.

Did you get a chance to do this?

[Wander4Wonder]

Originally Posted by acunningham

There's nothing complex in the Amel contract. It's seven pages in total. There are no references to other parts of the contract, or (except for the guarantee part) external documents. It's just the following, written in plain English and French:

* Your name and contact details.
* The model of boat you've ordered.
* The expected delivery date and place.
* The price.
* The dates payments are due.
* The dates you need to inform Amel which options you want by.
* That you agree to Amel using your personal data as necessary.
* What's provided with the delivery of the boat.
* That you agree to have insurance in place on delivery.
* That if you don't pay on time, Amel may charge you for storage, and if you still don't pay Amel may terminate the sale.
* Details of the two year guarantee, and which items are excluded. This comprises the largest part of the contract. This part references various parts of the French civil code, and is the only part of the contract that references external sources. The sections of the civil code referenced are provided, including an English translation.
* That the boat is delivered without VAT being paid, and you agree to pay the VAT if applicable.

It's a normal contract for Europe. It's all very straightforward, and perfectly understandable to any intelligent person. It has none of the fancy incomprehensible legalise that contracts in the USA tend to have. The word 'whereas' appears nowhere in it.

Boom23 and a few others had Amel do a lot of optional changes to internal layout and electrical packages. I'd be surprised if there isnt some allowance or process for adding an addendum for customization or special work done during construction by Amel builders or their vendors. I'd think if they warranty the boat they would have to carry liability for any work done as part of its completion including customization they conducted so that would have to be detailed to some degree.

[acunningham]

Originally Posted by Wander4Wonder

Boom23 and a few others had Amel do a lot of optional changes to internal layout and electrical packages. I'd be surprised if there isnt some allowance or process for adding an addendum for customization or special work done during construction by Amel builders or their vendors. I'd think if they warranty the boat they would have to carry liability for any work done as part of its completion including customization they conducted so that would have to be detailed to some degree.

There is indeed. It's an annexe to the contract, which is a separate document, and agreed at a later date after much discussion and a visit to the Amel boatyard. I completed mine today (which is what reminded me about this Cruisers Forum thread). My list of choices from the standard options that Amel offers all customers is five pages long, and my list of "off-piste" customisations is a further three pages. I guess most purchasers of new Amels are similar.

[Wander4Wonder]

Originally Posted by acunningham

There is indeed. It's an annexe to the contract, which is a separate document, and agreed at a later date after much discussion and a visit to the Amel boatyard. I completed mine today (which is what reminded me about this Cruisers Forum thread). My list of choices from the standard options that Amel offers all customers is five pages long, and my list of "off-piste" customizations is a further three pages. I guess most purchasers of new Amels are similar.

Congrats! and very excited for you as I am sure you are beyond excited. The Amel 50 is my dream boat (maybe one day) and a wonderful piece of oceangoing artistry and engineering. Hopefully you share the process and adventure with us as Boom23 did as I know Amel is constantly improving their builds as the hulls increase. Again enjoy! Could you share the options with us or with me I'd be curious as to what they offer now in comparison to Booms buy a couple years ago.

[acunningham]

Originally Posted by Wander4Wonder

Congrats! and very excited for you as I am sure you are beyond excited. The Amel 50 is my dream boat (maybe one day) and a wonderful piece of oceangoing artistry and engineering. Hopefully you share the process and adventure with us as Boom23 did as I know Amel is constantly improving their builds as the hulls increase. Again enjoy! Could you share the options with us or with me I'd be curious as to what they offer now in comparison to Booms buy a couple years ago.

I am! Yes, I can do a build thread like Boom23's once Amel start work on the boat. I expect they'll send me photographs of the construction, and I can share details of the options once the dust has settled on them.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Telesail

Although not an Amel, we bought a new build from a French boatyard. Used a French lawyer and felt that spending 0.5% of the purchase price to be properly protected from, for example, risks of the company becoming insolvent after receiving deposit but before delivery etc was a good investment.

Interesting. How did you mitigate that risk?