Do you have to be up for your own maintenance and repairs to sensibly own a sailboat

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Rblakenyc

Lake-effect, did you join with boat or acquire later? Neither of the two clubs I'm looking at are posh and seem to offer the advantages you outline - but need to explore if that's as true for a sailor without a boat.

We've belonged to two clubs. When we decided on the boat we wanted, we were lucky to find a spot at a club where we could dry-sail her from the trailer. So both happened at the same time. Then later we chose to move to a closer club at a slip.

But both clubs also had social memberships that people can join if they don't yet have a boat, or if there's a wait list for slips.

When covid permits, visit the clubs you're interested in, and ask your sailing buddies for info or references about those clubs.

[Tayana42]

Rblakenyc, after 52 years of boat ownership I can confirm that owning a boat makes no sense at all, whether you do all the work or not. Still, I love it. At 72 I can’t imagine not owning a boat that I love. I refuse to add up what I’ve spent on owning and maintaining boats over the years. I couldn’t take the shock. But I can tell you that my current boat (which is a high quality 42 footer in good shape I bought used in 2000 for about 10 times what you are considering) costs a lot to keep in Southern California even before the cost of maintenance.

In response to your original question I will say you can do it either way, pay others to do the work or do it yourself and learn as you go. Neither is the perfect answer. The amount of money expended or the amount of labor can drive you away from boat ownership unless you are committed, or are nuts and should be committed.

When I started out my first boat was very small and simple and I knew nothing about repair or maintenance. I did small projects like patching fiberglass dings, refinishing woodwork, replacing running rigging, small carpentry jobs. When I moved up to larger boats I realized I didn’t know enough to undertake big jobs on much of the complex systems so I had no choice but to hire mechanics and experts. Yes that’s expensive but so was my time when I was still employed. And yard time was expensive if the job required haul out and I would spend a lot longer trying to figure out how to do the job my first time. So I paid. But, I only hired people who would let me look over their shoulder and ask questions. I learned tons by watching, asking and listening.

Don’t be intimidated by those who say you must do it all yourself. And don’t be lulled into spending foolishly or trusting yard workers to be careful or concerned with your interests like you would be. You can decide how much you feel you can take on yourself and how much you are willing to spend for others to do the work. Over the years I have decided that the more I do myself the more I know how to do. But I’ve also decided there are jobs I need to pay for or that I just don’t want to do myself. For example, I never did engine work on cars so I knew nothing about diesel engines until I owned one. I hired a mechanic that had great references to do the basic maintenance while I watched. I learned to do oil and filter changes and adjust belts etc. I can replace hoses and clamps. I can replace the water pump impeller though it is hard because it is below the cabin sole and hard to reach and to see. I learned by doing lots of things over time with help from dock neighbors and YouTube. I also learned that I’d rather pay someone else to sand the bottom paint and apply toxic anti fouling paint. I’d rather pay someone else to tear down the engine. I am not afraid to climb the mast and I have done so many time but I’d rather pay a professional rigger to fix things at the masthead. So, what I’m saying is it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Decide for yourself. If you plan to go far afield where expert services and parts aren’t available then you need to be able to do more yourself. But you can enjoy sailing, coastal cruising even if you aren’t ready or willing to do all your own work. It’s up to you to decide how you want to go.

[Rblakenyc]

[QUOTE=So I paid. But, I only hired people who would let me look over their shoulder and ask questions. I learned tons by watching, asking and listening.
...
Over the years I have decided that the more I do myself the more I know how to do. But I’ve also decided there are jobs I need to pay for or that I just don’t want to do myself. [/QUOTE]

Than you so much! Really appreciate the perspective! Two favorite bits quoted above as I expect I will be following this path. Well, maybe not up the mast at your age but all the rest!

[Rblakenyc]

Deleted duplicate post

[George_SD]

Originally Posted by Rblakenyc

Have enjoyed being a life long small boat sailor. Like many, as I approach retirement I'm drawn to the idealic vision of enjoying several weeklong coastal cruises and many day sails each summer between long island sound and cape cod.

As I'm arm-chair shopping 28-32' classic plastics from '70s to '80s in $5-15k range I'm cognizant that I'm not well equiped to assess condition (soft spots, leaks engine, roller furler, sail condition, etc.) so inspection/survey seems wise even at this price (right?).

This is particularly hampered as the good deals seem to be boats on the hard at the moment or past 2 years. (Won't jump on one on the hard longer than that.) Am I crazy to purchase without sea trial?

When I read about all the work the owners have done the prior 5-10 years (typically themselves, I think) I don't get too worried about routine expenses but do feel a big splash of cold water thinking about dealing with those and unexpected issues.

So, the big question, is it reasonable to think I will find and be able to sensibly rely on a good yard to do the main work to keep the boat in reasonable shape? Is it crazy to go that route with an old boat?

I'm not looking to throw money away (I'm pretty cheap). But don't want the lack of mechanical ability and enthusiasm for chores to keep me from taking the plunge if I can reasonably rely on a yard.

(Lastly, I am interested in learning, understand the value of knowing your boat when out sailing, and am mechanical enough to often repair appliances and furnace at home and replace some car parts with help from youtube. Just not something I'm really eager to do more often.)

(Most useful will be responses from those who are succeeding in the manner I describe or those that tried that path and it didn't work. Less excited, but expect to be entertained by those do it your-selfers sharing stories about the clueless owner next door.)

Honestly, you may be much better of in joining a local sailboat program/sharing club where you pay dues and can use boat for X amount of time/days, etc.

You should really be ready to do your own work if you want to own a boat. Sometimes things happen when you are unable to get someone to come and do it for you. Other times, you better have a thick wallet.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Here are.some tips from someone who has observed boatyards and diy-ers for a few years while working on my own boat restoration. (These are the standard tips I give ro new boat owners who mostly ignore it and then later tell me I was right all along):

.
1- All boats require work. Even brand new ones. Repairs, maintenance, upkeep are constant and on-going. Boatyards charge astronomical prices & projects can easily take days to finish Specialized labor costs ie diesel mechanic, electrical tech etc. cost significantly more. It is quite easy for a boat to become a major project, the older the more work is involved, easily matching used boat purchase price. Personally I love working on my boat. Previous owners will do weird things or simply neglect a boat, costing a lot to fix. This includes for example never changibg the zinc anode on a heat exchanger, or getting a bottom job but not changing cutlass bearing or rudder post stuffing box...

2- No one cares about your boat as much as you do. You can't just hand over the keys, get some lunch, and come back expecting things to be done and done right. As soon as you hire someone to do some work, you've created an incentive to cut corners. This applies even to newly-made boats. This is a highly unregulated business; anyone can claim to be a boat technician. (ABYC-certified techs exist but there is no requirement to be certified) Riggers are a bit more regulated but I've seen certified ones say and so stupid things. We all have horror stories. Ie: household electrician hired to wire a boat. "Hey it is only 12 volts, not a big deal!" Zap.
So yes not only should there be a seatrial and survey you should expect them to miss a lot of problems too

2- You have to know your boat quite thoroghly because once you're out there help may be two Texases away. You should know every connection, wire, fitting and system, and be able to trace faults as well as find solutions or work arounds. The best way to do that is install it all yourself. There should be no mysterious areas aboard

5- This isn't rocket brain science. It doesn't require preexisting knowledge as much as a willingness and ability to learn practical knowledge (and spend money & time too) Know how to mix epoxy and polyester; how to use butyl under fittings etc. Much of boat work isnt skilled work and is just physically uncomfortable, repetitive, detailed and labor intensive ie many hours of sanding under hot sun with mosquitoes and dust everywhere.


6- This is the best time to fix up an old boat. The amount of information and material available by a click is amazing. Could you imagine having to use a telephone directory or consulting reams of catalogs to do the sort of shopping now available online, but even that consists of good and bad info which one must discern.

7 - You will never get a financial return on this inveatment in time and money. No matter what you do a 40 year old boat is priced as a 40 year old boat

[Paul L]

OP,
A 40 or 50 year old low purchase price boat does not make a good match with someone who does not plan to do a significant amount of the work themselves. It would be a lot cheaper to pay more for a newer boat in most cases.
Ask yourself how are you going to feel after you've purchased a $15k boat and had $20k worth of yard bills in the first few years. At this stage the boat will only be worth $15k, at best.

[Rblakenyc]

Thanks for the thought provoking posts. A few things rattling around in my head:
- I like learning how to do things and generally don't mind doing them once I get going - particularly if there's some comraderie among fellow sailors while doing so (such as all the great advice here)
- it was revealed yesterday that a boat I'm contemplating has a shroud plate issue - common and a bit scary to me. I went ahead and researched repairs and concluded I could probably get that done with a little help getting pointed to someone who can cut and weld aluminum in their shop. So maybe not so scary.
. I'm nearing retirement and luckily well compensated so I could work another month and easily double my initial purchase budget (newer boat in better condition) - if I'm willing and can convince myself it's a good place to "invest" the resulting income.
. As one poster noted, my plans for coastal cruising are not going to be as demanding on the boat as circumnavigation. Sometimes good enough is really going to be good enough.

I remain curious what other owners of classic 30'ers are spending annually and how much less a mooring vs slip. Still learning from the opinions & points of view. Thank you.

[BugzyCan]

When I bought my boat, the first thing I replaced was the compass, as it was front and center, and completely yellowed and unreadable. The boat had a CD radio, and no VHF, so that was added, along with an antenna, then I wanted to add solar, so the stern mast support needed to be removed and altered, and solar added to stern rail, and then I needed a second battery.
After a few sailing trips, discovered the swing keel cable had broken, so I needed to lift the boat to get it out and swap it, and do some fiberglass repairs on it.
There were various chips in the gelcoat, so fixed those. Cushions inside were held on by very old velcro, so I swapped all of that out.
It's an old boat, so there are some leaks that are difficult to find, so there is some work needed there (rebedding mostly).
Some of the rigging needs to be replaced, and could use new lines that are not weather beaten, although these ones work.
A new foresail one day, not sure it will be this year though.
I repainted the trailer and replaced all lights on it, still need to repack the wheel bearings.
Outboard motor needs a new impeller, will get that done this Spring.
The list goes on and on. I don't think I will ever truly be done fixing things. It is like owning a house, you just need to take care of things as they come up. With a boat, a lot of that stuff is custom, so you either learn to do it yourself, or you pay a lot of money for someone else to do it.

[beirutsailor]

I am amazed by the replies being all about money. When you are cruising anywhere worthwhile, and 20m offshore, there is no mechanic. Period. If your impeller fails, you should be able to do the work yourself. If your alterator belt slips, you should be able to tighten it yourself. If the current fails for your autopilot or chartplotter, or fridge, you should know how to test the wiring and find the losse connection. Etc.. Only way to learn to do this is doing maintenance while on land, with time to read the excellent books available, and ask for advice from your neighbours.

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by Rblakenyc

............I'm cognizant that I'm not well equiped to assess condition (soft spots, leaks engine, roller furler, sail condition, etc.) so inspection/survey seems wise even at this price (right?)............. Am I crazy to purchase without sea trial?...........So, the big question, is it reasonable to think I will find and be able to sensibly rely on a good yard to do the main work to keep the boat in reasonable shape? Is it crazy to go that route with an old boat?...........

My two cents:

1. Get marine, engine, rigging and electrical surveys so you can start boat ownership with an overall assessement of the boats's conditions and what has to be repaired. Insurance company will require a marine survey.

2. Be sure to purchase boat contingent on (WITH) a sea trial.

3. You will find and be able to sensibly rely on a good yard to do the main work to keep the boat in reasonable shape. Howvever, recommend limiting a boat yeard for "out of the water" maintenance like bottom painting and thruhull / valve replacement and hire mobile "boat contractors" for the other work OR learn to do the maintenance work yourself.

4. Not crazy to go go that route.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Rblakenyc

... I'm nearing retirement and luckily well compensated so I could work another month and easily double my initial purchase budget (newer boat in better condition) - if I'm willing and can convince myself it's a good place to "invest" the resulting income.
. As one poster noted, my plans for coastal cruising are not going to be as demanding on the boat as circumnavigation. Sometimes good enough is really going to be good enough.

I'm totally a believer in "sail now". You could consider a smaller boat now, (eg a trailerable microcruiser) to play with - something <= $5k to buy, much less than a bigger boat to maintain and use, while you continue to learn and save for the big boat.

In my opinion it's not a great time of year to buy unless you find a really incredible deal... but how would you know until you get a better idea of what would be right for you? Covid also means uncertainty about what kind of cruising season we'll have. So, waiting isn't a terrible strategy, especially if it puts you closer to a better-condition boat.

[Dooglas]

In my opinion you would be ill advised to invest $15,000 in a fiberglass sailboat without either extensive personal knowledge and experience with condition assessments and repairs or the services of an experienced marine surveyor. And, no, you don't have to have extensive experience and skills allowing you to do most of your own maintenance and repairs in order to own a sailboat, but if you don't - I'd advised you to avoid older boats priced near the bottom of the market and to budget realistically for boatyard services.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Rblakenyc

This idea that I need to do "a lot of work" is what I've been led to believe and want to hear more about. about. I hoped it was clear that I'd wash the boat myself, lol.

I'm thinking more like replacing through hulls, address rudder delamination, repairing soft spots, re-bed winches, rewire, etc... and should I expect a lot of this on a 40 year old 30 footer that's been well maintained /average condition.

Do you know how much your neighbors spending - not second guessing your perspective just making sure I'm clear what I'm hoping to gain insight into.

I'll give you a good example. A qualified friend and I painted my 42' boat with AwlGrip for about $3000. I paid him back by helping him paint a 56' boat he was getting paid to paint. I was quoted $30,000 to $40,000 to have a professional do it.

I'm not saying my paint job is as good what the pro would have done, but there is no way a pro's job could have looked ten times better than what we did. It was a lot of work though, and took us weeks to do. The prep was much worse than the actual painting.

[Cpt Mark]

Lots of good advice. 30 footer is a good size for week long trips or even living aboard where a 28 footer probably wouldn't be. Catalina, Newport, Islander, all plastic classics with good, known, resale value.

Diesel engines require basic maintenance, oil changes, clean fuel, good starting battery and they pretty much just run. Learning how to bleed the engine after you ran out of fuel is simple and every boat owner should know how to do this.

Bottom paint jobs. I put on 3 coats in 2 different colors so I can always know where I am as it goes away. I haul out about every 3 years. The yards in my area mostly won't let you DIY as it's a highly profitable project. 1 yard will let you but if you let them do it they won't charge you lay days. My boat was out of the water for 2.5 months! I've done bottom jobs. I'm more than happy to let them do it. But, I talk to the guys painting and explain, I want full, thick coats and I check on them. I also let them deal with through hulls especially when they are inaccessible to me because I'm 65 now and not as flexible as I was 20 years ago. I've also had a yard mechanic come and do work after hours at a much better rate.

Not everything needs to go to a yard either. I learned how to rebuild boats after buying a 40' leaky teaky I'd fallen in love with. I made friends with a guy who repaired boats as an independent and got lots of good advice. We became friends and within a year I was self employed working on others boats. It got to the point where if you wanted me to work on your boat the wait time was 1 year. Point is, there's a LOT of independent boat workers out there and you can find one(s) that you like, do great work and are much cheaper than a yard.

30' boat really isn't going to be a huge expense repair wise if you are not not concerned about it being in Bristol condition. There's not that much to go wrong. Don Casey's "This old boat" and his companion book on how to fix them up will be of great help to you.

A buddy of mine belongs to a sailing club. They have like 15 boats to use. He penciled out the numbers, slip fees, insurance etc. and decided that $250 month was a deal. He gets to use a boat when he wants and does zero maintenance and just has fun. Works for him.