EU Entry: When does the clock start

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

So........ After leaving Marbella I sail down to Tunisia and check in (intervening country) I then sail the delightful anchorages of Sardinia, Corsica and the Italian coast but don't go to a marina. At what point would the authorities say I have arrived back in the EU? When I do eventually check in to Capri for some well deserved caviar and vintage Moet?

I think you're missing a very important piece of the rules of international travel by boat. When you enter a country's territorial seas you are required to proceed directly to the nearest customs point to clear customs. Hanging out in their seas for even hours let alone days and weeks without checking in is looked at no differently by the border authorities than if you hopped off at the nearest beach and hiked around for several days before checking in with customs. You might not be caught in either case, but the consequences are the same and pretty stuff in both cases.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

So........ After leaving Marbella I sail down to Tunisia and check in (intervening country) I then sail the delightful anchorages of Sardinia, Corsica and the Italian coast but don't go to a marina. At what point would the authorities say I have arrived back in the EU? When I do eventually check in to Capri for some well deserved caviar and vintage Moet?

If you are planning on stopping at Marbella I see little point in sailing to Tunisia then back up to Sardinia and Corsica.. it would be more viable route via the Ballearics then a quick hop across to Sardinia, Corsica and Italy.. if the end goal is Turkey then from the Boot cut across to Greece and the Corinth Canal the exit of which places you 2 to 3 days from Turkish waters.
Regarding the non-stop from the UK Southwards I suggest once crossing the Channel and cutting through Chanel du Four you stay around 15nm offshore going down from Finisterre to St Vincent and pull into either Tangier or Gib to resupply before heading on to Marbella..

[goboatingnow]

Just to be clear

Immigration in the Schengen area will only use entry exit date stamps as proof of anything , a back to back Schengen exit entry will be disregarded ( ie treated as you never left )

That’s all that matters , what you do Re sea routes and sea days is irelevant

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Just to be clear

Immigration in the Schengen area will only use entry exit date stamps as proof of anything , a back to back Schengen exit entry will be disregarded ( ie treated as you never left )

That’s all that matters , what you do Re sea routes and sea days is irelevant

Hence my post.. he will gain little if anything by sailing to Tunisia as it will not reset his clock re 90 days out off 180, better by far to head N and then turn S and cover the areas he wants as opposed to S to N and then back down.
The other option is lay up the boat for 3 months, fly home and return to start a new 90 day cruise.

[George DuBose]

I had the exact experience when my US-flagged sailboat landed in Baltimore. I went to the bar and asked the barkeeper to call Irish Immigration. The immigration officer said he would come to Baltimore in the afternoon.

As my crew were in dire need of showers (yes there is a shower at the bar), I asked if the crew could disembark for a beer and a shower.

"No problem", was the reply.

Later when the friendly Irish Immigration officer was filling in his forms, I asked him if he was going to inspect the boat.

"What for?" he replied.

"Don't you want to look for drugs or something?"

"No-o-o-o, we have been watching you since you passed Valencia, we know you came from Canada, not the Caribbean.

When I asked him about paying the VAT in the EU, he reply was, "Keep your boat in Ireland, we don't care about that."

As a full-time resident of Germany, married to a German, I don't check in every time I reach France, Belgium, etc. I have been told that once I have been controlled by immigration, I am free to roam the Schengen region. The same with my friends visiting from the US. Once they land at Schipol, they don't have to report in every country we visit.

So I paid the VAT to the Dutch, had the boat CE-marked by having a Post-Construction Assessment survey and now I fly the US flag all over Europe attracting various Marchausee, Douane and Wasserpolizei, but we have nice chats...LOL

[Mike Banks]

Now that Trump is no longer president--or will not be for much longer--getting rid of Boris and re-joining the EU might be deemed a GOOD idea.

That would solve far more problems than it would create--but neoliberalism, madness and bad politics go hand in hand.

Meanwhile--we sail where we can--if we can--while we can--

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

Now that Trump is no longer president--or will not be for much longer--getting rid of Boris and re-joining the EU might be deemed a GOOD idea.

That would solve far more problems than it would create--but neoliberalism, madness and bad politics go hand in hand.

Meanwhile--we sail where we can--if we can--while we can--

The UK will never rejoin the EU , even if it wanted to as new accession would mean adopting the Euro

Of course after the secession of Scotland !!!

[goboatingnow]

As a full-time resident of Germany, married to a German, I don't check in every time I reach France, Belgium, etc. I have been told that once I have been controlled by immigration, I am free to roam the Schengen region. The same with my friends visiting from the US. Once they land at Schipol, they don't have to report in every country we visit.

So I paid the VAT to the Dutch, had the boat CE-marked by having a Post-Construction Assessment survey and now I fly the US flag all over Europe attracting various Marchausee, Douane and Wasserpolizei, but we have nice chats...LOL

The benefits of the EU are many fold !!!

[David B]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

For those who are in the UK and are perplexed with all the nonsense going on between UK Government and the EU I have a few practical questions.

I understand the new rules post Dec 31 regardless of a deal or not is that we have a rolling road of 90 days in every 180 days to visit the EU visa free.

My first question is when does the "clock" start? When you enter European waters or when you arrive at your European destination port? For example I leave the UK sail down the coast of France, Spain and Portugal then stop at Marbella 12 days later. Does the 90 day clock start at arriving in Marbella or when I entered EU waters and therefore would have used 12 days of my 90 day allowance.

My second question is does your allotted time get used when you are at sea? For example I arrive in Spain then sail non stop for 10 days to Greece. Do the ten days count as part of the 90? If not how do I record the fact I have been at sea?

My third question is if I sail from Spain to a non EU country and check in (say Tunisia) I assume the clock stops. I then leave Tunisia and sail and anchor for the next three months at various European locations but do not go to a Marina, how would the authorities know I have entered a European location to start the clock again?

Can't seem to find anything on the web with these scenarios.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Haddock.

We are talking Shengen here, not EU, as some EU countries have signed the Shengen agreement, and some haven't (common example would be Croatia - EU, but non-Shengen).

Your passport entry stamp, and exit stamp are the times. So if you were taking some days along a coast before clearing in, that is not counted - as long as you are not anchoring ....

Once you have cleared, out, then you wont want to be found anchoring somewhere in a bay with your passport showing you have cleared out - emergencies excepted.
And yes, they do come checking from time to time. We were boarded south of Sicilly. Very pleasant, but all papers checked, our passports checked (and politely reminded when we had to be out), our destination required, and then they made sure we headed in that direction, before disappearing over the horizon.

[goboatingnow]

Just to reiterate




If you arrive in a Schengen country from another Schengen country without any intervening non Schengen stamps in your passport , ie dates , immigration in the entry Schengen country will NOT allow the gap dates to be treated as being outside Schengen no matter how you arrived at the entry point

Hence if you leave France , anchor for a month in a North African bay ( not clearing in ) and day turn up in Spain , immigration will count that month as if you never left Schengen

So the answer is that days at sea “ between “ Schengen countries are not set off against the 90 days.

[Montanan]

The clock starts upon entry to the EU which is from whence your visa is issued, i.e., your passport is logged in [and may be stamped] upon clearing immigration at a port of entry. The clock does not stop until you similarly clear out via immigration control.

Of keen note, is that UKers will not be allowed entry to the EU or to the EU+ Area starting from January 1st, 2021 due to the EU Covid-19 travel restrictions. The UK is not on the EU's list of "safe countries", but perhaps it may become added. Only "essential travellers" to the EU+ Area will be permitted and diplomats. Recreational boating is considered NON-ESSENTIAL. Meaning that during the pandemic one may not even be able to go to the EU and thus the clock has been suspended from even starting.

As is all things BREXIT, stay tuned, perhaps reciprocity may be granted whereby persons will be allowed to traverse to the Isles and the Continent. The UK is no longer a member of the EU and thus is subject to loosing the benefits and privileges of being a member of the club, including unfettered access as has been granted during the transition period which is nearing its end. Definitely not business or cruising or taxation as usual.

Included in the Exemptions from Temporary Travel Restrictions to the EU [of special notice to UKers]:

United Kingdom citizens

United Kingdom nationals are to be treated the same as EU citizens until the end of the Brexit transition period (31 December 2020). Therefore, during that period United Kingdom nationals and their family members are exempt from the temporary travel restriction."

Please don't shoot this messenger,

The announcement of EU's Travel Restrictions

"The European Commission has adopted a proposal for a Council Recommendation on 25 June to lift travel restriction for countries agreed by Member States. This was done on the basis of a set of principles and objective criteria including

the health situation
the ability to apply containment measures during travel
reciprocity considerations
data from relevant sources such as the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control and the World Health Organisation.
The European Council has adopted a Recommendation on the gradual lifting of the temporary restrictions on non-essential travel into the EU on 30 June. Travel restrictions were lifted for countries listed in the recommendation. The list is updated, in principle, every two weeks.

Based on the criteria and conditions set out in the Recommendation, and on the updated list published by the Council on 22 October, Member States should start lifting the travel restrictions at the external borders for residents of the following third countries:

Australia
Japan
New Zealand
Rwanda
Singapore
South Korea
Thailand
Uruguay
China, including the Special Administrative Regions of Hong Kong and Macao, subject to confirmation of reciprocity
Residents of Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican should be considered EU residents for the purpose of the recommendation.

While the restrictions on non-essential travel and their lifting depend on the traveller’s place of residence, the visa requirement continues to depend on nationality. If a traveller resides in a country where restrictions have been lifted, but is a national of a visa-required country, he or she must apply at the consulate of the Member State to which he wishes to travel to, in his or her country of residence.

For all other third countries not on this list, Member States and Schengen Associated countries are temporarily suspending all non-essential travel from those third countries to the EU+ area, meaning that only certain categories of travellers could be authorised for entry. The “EU+ area” includes 30 countries: 26 out of the 27 EU Member States as well as the four Schengen Associated States: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. Ireland does not currently apply the travel restriction.

The rules for applying for a short-stay visa remain unchanged. Member States’ consulates and external service providers have however, adapted practical aspects of access management, hygiene measures, payment methods etc. Appropriate information on the procedure to follow for lodging an application should be provided to applicants.

Information on travel restrictions in place should be made available on the websites of the relevant national authorities (e.g. Ministries of Interior and Foreign Affairs).

Some exemptions have been put in place to ensure free movement of citizens, goods and services – with full respect of health and safety measures. Link to the list of exemptions of coronavirus travel restrictions to the EU: https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-...estrictions_en

All the best, from the Last Best Place. Stay safe, stay healthy.

[Niall]

All very interesting, Ireland of the welcomes is great.

But keep in mind there are funny Vat rules. If I understand correctly if you boat is out of the UK for more than 3 years you may be charged vat upon you return!
I hope for our UK friends I'm wrong.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Niall

All very interesting, Ireland of the welcomes is great.

But keep in mind there are funny Vat rules. If I understand correctly if you boat is out of the UK for more than 3 years you may be charged vat upon you return!
I hope for our UK friends I'm wrong.

No.. That is correct.
But if an EU citizen boats out of the EU (Schengen) for three years the same rule applies.
No a big issue really as boats that get to the Med and then return are maybe 5 in every hundred.. most got there and stayed and with the 18mth rule for boats will likely continue..
The cheap 'villa' in Spain, Italy or Greece will continue, just tie in one of your holidays with a quick trip to Tangier, Tunisia or Turkey.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Niall

All very interesting, Ireland of the welcomes is great.

But keep in mind there are funny Vat rules. If I understand correctly if you boat is out of the UK for more than 3 years you may be charged vat upon you return!
I hope for our UK friends I'm wrong.

Not may, rather will.

Nothing new there, as that has been the situation for a long time.

By the way the same VAT rules regarding reimportation of a vessel [or other good] that occurs more than three years after the export of the good from for the EU countries, applies to all UK boats and to all EU boats as well. This imposition of VAT issue is not a BREXIT issue, or a UK issue. This reimportation issue is just routine international business transaction as usual. And it does not just apply to vessels.

VAT is a "privilege" tax, similar to the privilege taxes, of Sale and / or Use taxation in the USA. One can be taxed more than once on the privilege associated with a sale or purchase, or use, or importation, or reimportation. Enjoy your privilege to do such transactions and the taxations that are associated with such grant of privilege to do such activities.

Not every State of the United States of America has such privilege based taxation of Sales and / or Use and the taxation rate is much more modest than the VAT imposed in Europe. In the USA, Sales and / or Use taxation generally is ranges from 5 to 9 percent. There is NO Federal government Sales or Use taxation applied to title exchange transactions for goods in the USA. My State of Montaña, does not have any Sales or Use taxation. We just have taxation on wealth, e.g. real estate [land and buildings] and on cars / trucks, and also on income. No transaction taxes in Montana, hence the price of the good or service is the price of the good or service, there is no added Sales or Use tax applied to the price at the time of the purchase. Whereas VAT seems to be calculated and included in the posted price of goods or services in the EU, VAT does not seem to be a cost that is separately calculated and thence separately itemized and included in your bill when you go to settle your purchase with a vendor.

[Briggers]

I have had a boat moored in Croatia since 2007 - before it joined the EU and not much has changed.
Just before they entered the EU, I was required to take my British Registered boat out of Croatian waters, so I sallied to Vieste in Italy. The problem there was, they would not stamp my passport, no matter how hard I tried to persuade them.
As far as Croatia is concerned. You MUST check in and out at the nearest point of entry/exit to Croatian waters, even if you are travelling from another Shengen country, and when you check out, you must leave Croatian waters immediately and directly. They put a stop watch on me when I left the police office.
I believe once you check in in France, you are free to travel to other French ports without checking in. I have been told that Italy is the reverse and you must check in each time you stop. I doubt this will change after we leave the EU.
I am pretty certain that if I leave my boat at it’s mooring on Hvar after we leave the the EU, I will be required to check out after 90 days. I can’t then checkin in Italy as they are also in the EU, so that leaves Montenegro, which is only a couple of days pleasant sailing. I could stay there for the summer or sail the Greek Isls and then head to Turkey and winter there.
Fortunately the RYA is on top of this and will advise accordingly - if your not a member, now might be a good time to join.