EU Entry: When does the clock start

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Briggers

I have had a boat moored in Croatia since 2007 - before it joined the EU and not much has changed.
Just before they entered the EU, I was required to take my British Registered boat out of Croatian waters, so I sallied to Vieste in Italy. The problem there was, they would not stamp my passport, no matter how hard I tried to persuade them.
As far as Croatia is concerned. You MUST check in and out at the nearest point of entry/exit to Croatian waters, even if you are travelling from another Shengen country, and when you check out, you must leave Croatian waters immediately and directly. They put a stop watch on me when I left the police office.
I believe once you check in in France, you are free to travel to other French ports without checking in. I have been told that Italy is the reverse and you must check in each time you stop. I doubt this will change after we leave the EU.
I am pretty certain that if I leave my boat at it’s mooring on Hvar after we leave the the EU, I will be required to check out after 90 days. I can’t then checkin in Italy as they are also in the EU, so that leaves Montenegro, which is only a couple of days pleasant sailing. I could stay there for the summer or sail the Greek Isls and then head to Turkey and winter there.
Fortunately the RYA is on top of this and will advise accordingly - if your not a member, now might be a good time to join.

FYI.

Montenegro
Foreigners holding a valid Schengen Visa can enter, transit and stay in the territory of the Republic of Montenegro without needing to show a Montenegrian visa. The allowed period of stay to this category is maximum 30 DAYS upon every entry per period of 180 DAYS

Reference: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/non...schengen-visa/

[Briggers]

Originally Posted by Montanan

FYI.

Montenegro
Foreigners holding a valid Schengen Visa can enter, transit and stay in the territory of the Republic of Montenegro without needing to show a Montenegrian visa. The allowed period of stay to this category is maximum 30 DAYS upon every entry per period of 180 DAYS

Reference: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/non...schengen-visa/

Yes, I know this but you will still need to check out of Croatia before you leave their waters - unless you want to face real issues when you get back.
There is no love loss between Croatia and Montenegro and visa versa

[Rickit]

For a comprehensive briefing and information on the new arrangements in relation to both people and boats go to the Cruising Association. Website https://www.theca.org.uk
I am both a CA and RYA member and the CA has by far the most comprehensive guide to the rules provided by a specialist group of members. They have also been working with local people and organisations in each of the Schengen countries. Excellent webinar a week ago answered my questions. Obviously you have to be a member to access the information.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Briggers

Yes, I know this but you will still need to check out of Croatia before you leave their waters - unless you want to face real issues when you get back.
There is no love loss between Croatia and Montenegro and visa versa

Indeed one needs to formally clear out / check out of Croatia else their permitted visa time will not have stopped counting and thus reentry would be precluded.

But you can't spend an entire summer in Montenegro under a short stay visa, as one can only stay 30 days in any 180 day period in Montenegro which is much shorter than the 90 days in any 180 day period of the Schengen countries. Specifically, Croatia has got nothing to due with Montenegro's restrictive short term visa restrictions and requirements.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Not may, rather will.

Nothing new there, as that has been the situation for a long time.

By the way the same VAT rules regarding reimportation of a vessel [or other good] that occurs more than three years after the export of the good from for the EU countries, applies to all UK boats and to all EU boats as well. This imposition of VAT issue is not a BREXIT issue, or a UK issue. This reimportation issue is just routine international business transaction as usual. And it does not just apply to vessels.

VAT is a "privilege" tax, similar to the privilege taxes, of Sale and / or Use taxation in the USA. One can be taxed more than once on the privilege associated with a sale or purchase, or use, or importation, or reimportation. Enjoy your privilege to do such transactions and the taxations that are associated with such grant of privilege to do such activities.

Not every State of the United States of America has such privilege based taxation of Sales and / or Use and the taxation rate is much more modest than the VAT imposed in Europe. In the USA, Sales and / or Use taxation generally is ranges from 5 to 9 percent. There is NO Federal government Sales or Use taxation applied to title exchange transactions for goods in the USA. My State of Montaña, does not have any Sales or Use taxation. We just have taxation on wealth, e.g. real estate [land and buildings] and on cars / trucks, and also on income. No transaction taxes in Montana, hence the price of the good or service is the price of the good or service, there is no added Sales or Use tax applied to the price at the time of the purchase. Whereas VAT seems to be calculated and included in the posted price of goods or services in the EU, VAT does not seem to be a cost that is separately calculated and thence separately itemized and included in your bill when you go to settle your purchase with a vendor.

Again some misinformation

In the US sales tax is applied on the full value of the sale and in fact if the item is sold repeatedly at retail level the sales is applied again

In the EU ( VAT has nothing to do with Schengen area ) VAT is recovered by business on purchases and applied on sales. Hence the vat paid by businesses is only on the gain in sales value. The total amount of course is not recovered by a retail purchaser

However where an item is resold again at a retail level again only the gain in retail is paid.

VAT is always computed and shown separately on business invoices and different rates of VAT apply from zero rated to full national rates so for example if I get a mechanic to fit a car part and I buy that part from him as well , I only pay 13%

Again in retail sales what’s shown on a sales receipt almost always shows the vat computation , even though legally for example in Ireland ,for example retailers are not required to issue receipts though almost all do. My McDonald’s for example does show the vat computation. ( most food is zero rated etc ?

Vat must be accounted for on every sale purchase , import and export , it’s not a privilege tax, it’s a simple transaction tax.

The EU funds itself by taking a fixed percentage of the national vat take

[JeanF73]

Good question
1) every country and every immigration agent might have their own interpretation
2) in my experience in the med (us passport)
- time starts when checking in at a eu port of entry
- time stops when checking out of a eu port with on non eu destination
- not making it to the a non eu destination for weather or other reason, time starts again when checking the next eu port of entry.
- no need to check in when traveling from one to another eu country, but be ready to be visited by customs and immigration
eu = Shengen

Remember the 18 months EU for the boat flying a non eu flag. Only needs to hit a non EU port for 10 minutes to reset that clock though

Best country to get a carte de séjour is France; avoid Paris

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Briggers

I have had a boat moored in Croatia since 2007 - before it joined the EU and not much has changed.

Just before they entered the EU, I was required to take my British Registered boat out of Croatian waters, so I sallied to Vieste in Italy. The problem there was, they would not stamp my passport, no matter how hard I tried to persuade them.

As far as Croatia is concerned. You MUST check in and out at the nearest point of entry/exit to Croatian waters, even if you are travelling from another Shengen country, and when you check out, you must leave Croatian waters immediately and directly. They put a stop watch on me when I left the police office.

I believe once you check in in France, you are free to travel to other French ports without checking in. I have been told that Italy is the reverse and you must check in each time you stop. I doubt this will change after we leave the EU.

I am pretty certain that if I leave my boat at it’s mooring on Hvar after we leave the the EU, I will be required to check out after 90 days. I can’t then checkin in Italy as they are also in the EU, so that leaves Montenegro, which is only a couple of days pleasant sailing. I could stay there for the summer or sail the Greek Isls and then head to Turkey and winter there.

Fortunately the RYA is on top of this and will advise accordingly - if your not a member, now might be a good time to join.

Just to be clear , the flag registration of your boat has nothing what so ever to do with the entry requirements for its crew.

Croatia no longer requires EU citizens to clear in or out of the country ( ie like cavtat) for U.K passport holders post 31st Dec ( 11pm GMT ) this will be different

In all of the EU , EU citizens arriving by pleasure vessel from outside the Schengen area need only to check in once do not need to check in again if they sail between Schengen countries even if they transit through international waters on route. EU citizens and Schengen area citizens are not required to check in at all. There is no requirement to repeatedly check in in Italian ports for several years now for eu citizens

These days you’d be hard pushed to find any immigration people at most leisure ports. Typically the marina will verify your Schengen status and everything is fine. This applies to EU citizens outside Schengen , ie they never bothered to formally check you in , this is because no immigration rules apply to EU citizens whether their country is in Schengen or not.

After Brexit the situation , unless modified , will become more awkward for U.K. passport holders as the U.K. will be a “ third country status “ and isn’t in the Schengen area to boot. Hence the 90 day restrictions and the need to clear in and out may change. What will be clear is the freedoms enjoyed by U.K. passport holders in the EU as a result of 50 years of mutual treaties will end and a host of restrictions will raise their head , while this will have little practical implications for a Londoner on the familiar two weeks on the ” Costas” , it will have significant effects for longer stays and arrivals and departures by sea etc.

I should mention that RGR goods relief on yachts after 3 years either in the U.K. or the EU is almost impossible to enforce and monitor. In the U.K. ( like Ireland ) there is basically no monitoring of arriving vessels , so immigration or customs have no idea where the vessel has been and for how long , hence in practice VAT is never levied . So once the vessel owner or registration hasn’t changed is largely a moot point.

The same is true in most parts of the EU. The authorities have no real idea how long the vessel has been out of the EU ( of at all ) and hence cannot easily establish if RGR relief doesn’t apply. I’ve actually never come across a situation where vat reapplied where the flag and owner didn’t change.

In this regard HMRCs threat to apply RGR rules to returning U.K. yachts from the EU is rather ridiculous as there is no Surveillance , and no check in practice for U.K. passport holders , o suspect HMRC will have its hands full preventing Kent from becoming a truck park anyways to be bothered with a few yachts.

While we rabbit on about this rule and that in the EU and the U.K. , in practice on the ground things are a little more laid back than that.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by JeanF73

Good question

1) every country and every immigration agent might have their own interpretation

2) in my experience in the med (us passport)

- time starts when checking in at a eu port of entry

- time stops when checking out of a eu port with on non eu destination

- not making it to the a non eu destination for weather or other reason, time starts again when checking the next eu port of entry.

- no need to check in when traveling from one to another eu country, but be ready to be visited by customs and immigration

eu = Shengen



Remember the 18 months EU for the boat flying a non eu flag. Only needs to hit a non EU port for 10 minutes to reset that clock though



Best country to get a carte de séjour is France; avoid Paris

Note that ( and I had this directly from French immigration ) , that while immigration officials have considerable leeway, the standard regulations mean that in the absence of quantifiable evidence, Schengen immigration will use the dates on your passport

When you clear out of a Schengen port , and then clear in some days later in another Schengen area port , the “ lost “ days will not be deducted from your 90 days, irrespective of the fact that you “ intended “ but didn’t reach a non Schengen port.

You need to be careful about this. If for example you leave France intending to Visit Morocco, then spend 10 days at sea in a storm and Decide to land in Italy , the official might listen sympathetically to your plight and may stamp you in accordingly , but the airport immigration will just count backwards for 180 days from the first Schengen entry date ( assuming no intervening non Schengen stamps ) and hence will ignore days at sea. So you could unwittingly end up defaulting on your Schengen visa

It’s worth noting that however unlike the US , Schengen area overstays area rarely punished unless immigration have reason to believe you are a habitual offender or” look “ the type of overstay chancer . There is rarely any restrictions placed on occasional overstayers in entering next time. This is on marked contrast to US overstay issues.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Interesting. So as you check in on arrival at Mabelle you also need check out when you leave? Currently don't need to do this just provide last port and next destination when you check in. So our "American" friends need to check out of Mabelle even if they are just heading up the road to Valencia?

Apologies I meant To say arrival and departure Schengen ports. Ie the first port in the Schengen area and the departure port in the Schengen area.

However note that the Schengen protocol does not specifically cover arrival by private yacht , it only covers arrival by specific carriers and routes.

Hence countries are free to impose any regulations on those arriving by private yacht. EU citizens from non Schengen areas however have rights of residence that in effect override national immigration.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again some misinformation

In the US sales tax is applied on the full value of the sale and in fact if the item is sold repeatedly at retail level the sales is applied again

In the EU ( VAT has nothing to do with Schengen area ) VAT is recovered by business on purchases and applied on sales. Hence the vat paid by businesses is only on the gain in sales value. The total amount of course is not recovered by a retail purchaser

However where an item is resold again at a retail level again only the gain in retail is paid.

VAT is always computed and shown separately on business invoices and different rates of VAT apply from zero rated to full national rates so for example if I get a mechanic to fit a car part and I buy that part from him as well , I only pay 13%

Again in retail sales what’s shown on a sales receipt almost always shows the vat computation , even though legally for example in Ireland ,for example retailers are not required to issue receipts though almost all do. My McDonald’s for example does show the vat computation. ( most food is zero rated etc ?

Vat must be accounted for on every sale purchase , import and export , it’s not a privilege tax, it’s a simple transaction tax.

The EU funds itself by taking a fixed percentage of the national vat take

VAT is one of the forms of a privilege tax, specifically VAT is a transaction privilege tax (TPT).


The method of calculation and payment for VAT and for Sales / Use taxation are distinctly different.

A VAT is levied on the gross margin / "value-added" at each point in the manufacturing-distribution-sales process of an item. The tax is assessed and collected at each stage, in contrast to a sales tax, which is only assessed and paid by the consumer at the very end of the supply chain.

In the USA, the total Sales and Use taxation on the end value of the good or service in the States that have such privilege transaction tax is 5 to 9 percent. VAT is typically a much higher total tax percentage of the value.

In the States, a Sales tax is charged and collected by the vendor / retailer that is in the business of selling the good or service, whereas in a private sale transaction, for example, when one sells their car to another private car owner, the buyer becomes responsible for reporting the purchase / use and the payment of then thence Use tax. Businesses that purchase goods for the purchase of resale, [including the inclusion of the good into a value added good, say as a component] do not need to pay sales tax to the vendor that supplies that intermediary value good which will be resold; however to be exempted from the Sales tax when purchasing a good, the purchaser needs to issue the vendor a Sales Tax Exemption certificate to the vendor which then permits the seller of the otherwise Sales taxable good to be exempt from charging and collecting the Sales tax from the buyer and the vendor remitting the Sales tax to the State's Revenue department. The States will routinely audit sales transactions to see whether a transaction was properly charged nd remitted for the Sale tax that was due, or they will determine that the transaction was permitted to be exempt from the Sales tax charge / collection / remittance by the vendor. The State will also audit the buyers and will have records of their issued Sales Tax Exemption certifications provided to the supply vendors and thus cross check whether sales taxes have in fact been collected at the final stage of the supply chain. The Sales tax being due when a good or service is transferred to the final user and only due when the good or service reaches a transaction with the final user.

Two distinct systems, but the similar goal as to deriving revenue to the government based on a value of an ultimately to be consumed service or good.

Just different nuanced methods of deriving the funding.

[Algee]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

For those who are in the UK and are perplexed with all the nonsense going on between UK Government and the EU I have a few practical questions.

I understand the new rules post Dec 31 regardless of a deal or not is that we have a rolling road of 90 days in every 180 days to visit the EU visa free.

My first question is when does the "clock" start? When you enter European waters or when you arrive at your European destination port? For example I leave the UK sail down the coast of France, Spain and Portugal then stop at Marbella 12 days later. Does the 90 day clock start at arriving in Marbella or when I entered EU waters and therefore would have used 12 days of my 90 day allowance.

My second question is does your allotted time get used when you are at sea? For example I arrive in Spain then sail non stop for 10 days to Greece. Do the ten days count as part of the 90? If not how do I record the fact I have been at sea?

My third question is if I sail from Spain to a non EU country and check in (say Tunisia) I assume the clock stops. I then leave Tunisia and sail and anchor for the next three months at various European locations but do not go to a Marina, how would the authorities know I have entered a European location to start the clock again?

Can't seem to find anything on the web with these scenarios.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Haddock.

I believe it is when you enter one of the Schengen countries the clock starts ticking, that includes most EU countries but not all. Ireland, Bulgaria, Romania Corsica and Cyprus are not in Schengan, yet. The last four will be joining and Ireland may remain out.
To restart the clock you would need a stamp in your pasport from a non Schengan country. But don't forget the non EU countries that are in Schengan, Iceland, Norway and two that you won't interest you, Switzerland and Lichtenstein.
This brexit is causing me navigating difficulties, what with the glare from the sunny uplands and all these cards I'm holding obscuring my view I'll be glad to make any safe land fall.

[IoannisD]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

For those who are in the UK and are perplexed with all the nonsense going on between UK Government and the EU I have a few practical questions.

I understand the new rules post Dec 31 regardless of a deal or not is that we have a rolling road of 90 days in every 180 days to visit the EU visa free.

My first question is when does the "clock" start? When you enter European waters or when you arrive at your European destination port? For example I leave the UK sail down the coast of France, Spain and Portugal then stop at Marbella 12 days later. Does the 90 day clock start at arriving in Marbella or when I entered EU waters and therefore would have used 12 days of my 90 day allowance.

My second question is does your allotted time get used when you are at sea? For example I arrive in Spain then sail non stop for 10 days to Greece. Do the ten days count as part of the 90? If not how do I record the fact I have been at sea?

My third question is if I sail from Spain to a non EU country and check in (say Tunisia) I assume the clock stops. I then leave Tunisia and sail and anchor for the next three months at various European locations but do not go to a Marina, how would the authorities know I have entered a European location to start the clock again?

Can't seem to find anything on the web with these scenarios.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Haddock.

The EU provides an online calculator at https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/co...-calculator_en

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Algee

I believe it is when you enter one of the Schengen countries the clock starts ticking, that includes most EU countries but not all. Ireland, Bulgaria, Romania Corsica and Cyprus are not in Schengan, yet. The last four will be joining and Ireland may remain out.
To restart the clock you would need a stamp in your pasport from a non Schengan country. But don't forget the non EU countries that are in Schengan, Iceland, Norway and two that you won't interest you, Switzerland and Lichtenstein.
This brexit is causing me navigating difficulties, what with the glare from the sunny uplands and all these cards I'm holding obscuring my view I'll be glad to make any safe land fall.

Ireland has to remain outside Schengen , we have a common travel area with the UK, no passports needed , no immigration control etc

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Algee

I believe it is when you enter one of the Schengen countries the clock starts ticking, that includes most EU countries but not all. Ireland, Bulgaria, Romania Corsica and Cyprus are not in Schengan, yet. The last four will be joining and Ireland may remain out.
To restart the clock you would need a stamp in your pasport from a non Schengan country. But don't forget the non EU countries that are in Schengan, Iceland, Norway and two that you won't interest you, Switzerland and Lichtenstein.
This brexit is causing me navigating difficulties, what with the glare from the sunny uplands and all these cards I'm holding obscuring my view I'll be glad to make any safe land fall.

Yes this is a correct summary. Other then to rephrase “ to stop the 90 day clock you need a stamp in your passport from a non schengen .....”

[goboatingnow]

My third question is if I sail from Spain to a non EU country and check in (say Tunisia) I assume the clock stops. I then leave Tunisia and sail and anchor for the next three months at various European locations but do not go to a Marina, how would the authorities know I have entered a European location to start the clock again?

Just to deal with this aspect

Firstly bear in mind that the oft quoted Schengen rules only actually apply to travellers entering via “ approved “ methods , typically via Road land borders , commercial air and sea transport , they do not apply to people arriving by private pleasure boat and hence countries can and do have special requirements, even if both the port authorities and the travelers themselves might be unaware of this fact! ( or more likely custom & practice means they just ignore the funny rules )

In your example , the authorities as a matter of course don’t track arriving yachts , hence they haven’t a clue , but

(A) marinas are often obliged to either do clearance or refer the crew or ship to the port police where they believe Formal clearance is required

(B ) let’s use your example and you depart with an exit stamp , and renter Schengen without acquiring an entrance stamp ( you are legally required to clear in , so you are already breaking the immigration law ) , now after a few weeks you decide to fly home and the immigration official thinks you’re a bit dodgy ( usually being British in France is enough ) . Now he can’t find a matching entrance exit stamp , whoops visa violation .