Fatality - Clipper around the world race

[vjm]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Yes, that is a bit of a mystery, I have built open transom boats and think they are excellent allowing large cockpits that drain fast but it seems that having a net across the back of the cockpit could prevent this type of disaster without impeding drainage.

There is no evidence she went out the back. The accounts say she was washed under lifelines, but the inquest should throw some light on exactly what happened.

[goat]

Clipper Round The World Yacht Race sailor Sarah Young buried at sea - YBW


Truly sad. RIP.

goat

[Hanksy]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Especially in cold water.

Today's adventure was splashing a boat after a bottom job and motoring back to the slip. We hadn't gotten 50 yards from the travelift when the engine quit--the prop was jammed in the plastic covering they had put over the lift straps, which was not properly secured.

As we started drifting down the channel towards a low bridge, I had the owner drop the anchor. That stopped us, and I gave him my knife and told him to jump in and cut it the plastic loose.He went slowly down the swim ladder, and (with a lot of encouragement) finally got completely wet. However, he kept complaining he couldn't catch his breath, and after getting his head wet once and about 5 minutes in the water, he gave up. We ended up getting towed back to the travelift and re-hauled to free the prop.

Later this afternoon I mentioned this to one of the young bucks (who had joined me in cutting a fishing net loose on the way back from Hawaii in warmer water). He said that he had exactly the same experience when he dropped an expensive block overboard at the dock in SF bay and tried to swim down and retrieve it.

I thought they were both wankers, but in both cases the water temp was about 55 degrees F (13 C) and a little internet research came up with

National Center for Cold Water Safety - What is Cold Water?

which says that most untrained people will completely lose control of their breathing when they jump into water between 50 and 60 degrees F.

Ichor Coal was somewhere near 160 E/39N with sea surface temps below 40 F/5C.

I surf in Ireland and freedive. Water gets down to 6c. Surfing and diving it's bearable. Last week I had to free a prop on a canal boat. Put on the wetsuit but didn't bother with a hood. I was shocked by the effect.
Instant brain freeze and it felt like someone was squeezing hard. I could stand in the canal but was a bit out of breath after dunking my head.
Freediving in 6 or 7c I can manage about 2 mins no problem.
The difference I think was the shock to my body. When surfing or freediving getting stripped off in the cold air and into the wetsuits gets your heart pumping and you're warm. Last week it was sunny and I only put on a wetsuits. No fins or weight belts or anything else to mess with so I went from dressed to in the water in a bit 60secs. Really opened my eyes to the effects of cold water. Something I thought I was well experienced with.

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L01 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Hanksy

. . . Something I thought I was well experienced with.. .

Words to live by. I find myself saying this to myself almost every week. The really important thing is to keep your mind open to it.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Hanksy

I surf in Ireland and freedive. Water gets down to 6c. Surfing and diving it's bearable. Last week I had to free a prop on a canal boat. Put on the wetsuit but didn't bother with a hood. I was shocked by the effect.
Instant brain freeze and it felt like someone was squeezing hard. I could stand in the canal but was a bit out of breath after dunking my head.
Freediving in 6 or 7c I can manage about 2 mins no problem.
The difference I think was the shock to my body. When surfing or freediving getting stripped off in the cold air and into the wetsuits gets your heart pumping and you're warm. Last week it was sunny and I only put on a wetsuits. No fins or weight belts or anything else to mess with so I went from dressed to in the water in a bit 60secs. Really opened my eyes to the effects of cold water. Something I thought I was well experienced with.

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L01 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

good response. This is also why over here we have television warnings during 'summer' for people to check the water temp in inland lakes and streams before just jumping in, as the temp under the surface can be so much less and the shock to the system of sudden unexpected ditching can be severe.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

the temp under the surface can be so much less and the shock to the system of sudden unexpected ditching can be severe.

The first response is a gasp. I teach my crew / students to pinch their nose and cover their mouth, if they fall in.

Fortunately this is untested.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Rule #1 - Boats are not democracies.

Many of my crew do pay to sail with me.

I have standing orders. I insist that all crew read and initial each page. I am currently amending mine to adhere to Transport Canada regulations about emergency procedures and tweaking some sections. Included in the SOs are the situations in which I am to be awakened. "If in doubt" is one of the situations.

My watch captains are secondarily responsible to ensure that all are safe.

If at all possible, I adopt the same procedure as some navies. I am not assigned to a watch, I sleep in 45 minute bouts in the saloon and get up to check things out. Even while asleep I can usually sense when something is wrong.

BTW - The worst offenders tend to be the boat owners.

Do you ever get anyone to sail with you let alone pay for the privilege?

Also, nothing like the clear thinking and good decision making when seriously sleep deprived.

I thought sailing was suppose to be enjoyable?

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by jackdale

The first response is a gasp. I teach my crew / students to pinch their nose and cover their mouth, if they fall in.

Fortunately this is untested.

And just how practical is that, really? You aren't standing around...oh wait I'm about to fall in and...oh, I remember.

Give me a break.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Do you ever get anyone to sail with you let alone pay for the privilege?

Also, nothing like the clear thinking and good decision making when seriously sleep deprived.

I thought sailing was suppose to be enjoyable?

First question - yes. I had my first pleasure sail in 9 years last month. 8 of us from my squash club in the Bahamas in a 46 foot cat. Two of them had taken lessons from me last year. Great time.

All of my sailing in the past 9 years has been work - mainly instruction, mainly offshore.

This summer I am bringing a race boat back from Maui to Vancouver with a crew of 6 - all of whom are paying to be certified up to Yachtmaster Ocean.

You should try sailing with John Neal of Mahina. A friend who sailed with him told me he put a crew member ashore after the crew member did not inform John of the presence of a another vessel.

BTW - I have raced on democratic boats. Discussing whether or not we should gybe seemed to diminish the role of the tactician.

As the skipper I am responsible for the safety and comfort of my crew. Legally, I am responsible at all times for what happens, even when I am asleep.

I did not make the decisions about what anchorage we might use or what we are having for dinner. I will veto an anchorage I do not consider safe.

On one trip in the Med I suggested that we might come about. When one novice crew member asked if she had a vote in the matter, the rest of the crew said "No."

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

And just how practical is that, really? You aren't standing around...oh wait I'm about to fall in and...oh, I remember.

Give me a break.

As I said it is untested by me. The advise comes from Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht, AKA Dr. Popsicle, a hypothermia expert. University of Manitoba - Faculty of Kinesiology and Recreation Management - Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht

If you do remember, your chances of survival will increase. Otherwise you will take in a whole lot of water into your lungs.

[Rustic Charm]

[QUOTE=jackdale;2090361]First question - yes. I had my first pleasure sail in 9 years last month. 8 of us from my squash club in the Bahamas in a 46 foot cat. Two of them had taken lessons from me last year. Great time.

All of my sailing in the past 9 years has been work - mainly instruction, mainly offshore.

This summer I am bringing a race boat back from Maui to Vancouver with a crew of 6 - all of whom are paying to be certified up to Yachtmaster Ocean.

You should try sailing with John Neal of Mahina. A friend who sailed with him told me he put a crew member ashore after the crew member did not inform John of the presence of a another vessel.

BTW - I have raced on democratic boats. Discussing whether or not we should gybe seemed to diminish the role of the tactician.

As the skipper I am responsible for the safety and comfort of my crew. Legally, I am responsible at all times for what happens, even when I am asleep.

I did not make the decisions about what anchorage we might use or what we are having for dinner. I will veto an anchorage I do not consider safe.

On one trip in the Med I suggested that we might come about. When one novice crew member asked if she had a vote in the matter, the rest of the crew said "No."[/QUOTE]

You sound like a sensible skipper to be learning under

This reminds me of an episode of whale wars where one of the Sea Shepherd boats was contemplating on whether to go smack into a storm to chase the whalers or to go around the storm and risk loosing them. Whilst the skipper was talking to his second mate about the options, one of the other crew speaks up and says, 'I vote we go around'. Without even looking at her the skipper said, 'you don't get a vote, it's my decision'. The decided to warn the crew they were continuing the persuit.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by jackdale

As I said it is untested by me. The advise comes from Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht, AKA Dr. Popsicle, a hypothermia expert. University of Manitoba - Faculty of Kinesiology and Recreation Management - Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht

If you do remember, your chances of survival will increase. Otherwise you will take in a whole lot of water into your lungs.

I recognise you have said it's 'untested' and I'm sure there are some occassions when you might be aware for a split second that your about to go over the side. BUT, with most deaths that occur with sudden emersion, it's the unexpectedness of it that kills you. Your body is routinely breathing as part of it's natural process. To hold one's breath is a natural and deliberate decision making process of the brain. If you are suddenly dunked, without knowledge that it's about to happen, whether in cold or really warm water, your brain has no time to contemplate what you need to do. Blackout is almost instantly. You drown. Exceptionally cold water exasperates this same thing from occuring.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I recognise you have said it's 'untested' and I'm sure there are some occassions when you might be aware for a split second that your about to go over the side. BUT, with most deaths that occur with sudden emersion, it's the unexpectedness of it that kills you. Your body is routinely breathing as part of it's natural process. To hold one's breath is a natural and deliberate decision making process of the brain. If you are suddenly dunked, without knowledge that it's about to happen, whether in cold or really warm water, your brain has no time to contemplate what you need to do. Blackout is almost instantly. You drown. Exceptionally cold water exasperates this same thing from occuring.

Agreed.

Being underwater is a weird experience.

Breathing underwater is bizarre.

When I was taking diving instruction, I had to take my mask off and force myself to breathe. That night I had the strangest dreams. I mentioned this to my instructor and he asked " when was the last time you breathed "underwater"." I realized it was in my mother's womb. Yep!

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

This reminds me of an episode of whale wars where one of the Sea Shepherd boats was contemplating on whether to go smack into a storm to chase the whalers or to go around the storm and risk loosing them. Whilst the skipper was talking to his second mate about the options, one of the other crew speaks up and says, 'I vote we go around'. Without even looking at her the skipper said, 'you don't get a vote, it's my decision'. The decided to warn the crew they were continuing the persuit.

That skipper obviously didn't learn much on his MRM course.
MRM grew out of BRM which came from CRM which had its origins in the Teneriffe Air Disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariti...rce_Management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

'Less experienced flight crew members were encouraged to challenge their captains when they believed something was not correct, and captains were instructed to listen to their crew and evaluate all decisions in light of crew concerns. This concept was later expanded into what is known today as Crew Resource Management (CRM), in which training is now mandatory for all airline pilots.'

Having been smacked down like that by the master that crew member - when next seeing something bad about to happen - will probably say nothing and it will serve the captain right when he smacks a rock.

1/ It isn't a democracy and, yes, the captain makes the decisions and has to live by them.

2/ Captains are human , are fallible, and have been known to screw up.

3/ Hence the need for a good MRM/BRM/CRM culture.

4/ See #2

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

That skipper obviously didn't learn much on his MRM course.
MRM grew out of BRM which came from CRM which had its origins in the Teneriffe Air Disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariti...rce_Management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

'Less experienced flight crew members were encouraged to challenge their captains when they believed something was not correct, and captains were instructed to listen to their crew and evaluate all decisions in light of crew concerns. This concept was later expanded into what is known today as Crew Resource Management (CRM), in which training is now mandatory for all airline pilots.'

Having been smacked down like that by the master that crew member - when next seeing something bad about to happen - will probably say nothing and it will serve the captain right when he smacks a rock.

1/ It isn't a democracy and, yes, the captain makes the decisions and has to live by them.

2/ Captains are human , are fallible, and have been known to screw up.

3/ Hence the need for a good MRM/BRM/CRM culture.

4/ See #2

Well, yes, I wouldn't disagree with any of that. Not really what we are talking about though. 'Sharing information' is an entirely different thing to participating in a final decision making process. The skipper was entirely correct. It was not a smack down as you put it. If she wanted to alert the skipper to something he had not seen, e.g weather charts showing something he was not considering, then well enough. But when the final decison is needed to be made, it is the skippers.