FULL verses FIN

[Rick]

What is missing in this string is a "third" keel option. I believe it was first introduced by Ted Brewer followed by Bob Perry and others. It is the modern cutaway cruising keel which offers the advantages of a fin keel in backing and maneuverability with the advantages of a full keel having good directional stability without the disadvantage of a huge wetted surface area to slow one down.

Having experienced all three I definitely go with the "third" keel option for offshore and inshore use. Not being particular enamored with some racing mentality and cost a fin keel has no attraction for my sailing enjoyment.

Here is a link to a Boatus article which covers the object of this string quite well:
Good Old Boat: Keel Design - What's best? by Ted Brewer

Because my current cruising boat, as well as the previous one, has a "modern" cruising keel ala Ted Brewer type (although not designed by him) perhaps a third voting option could be added to the "vote".

Regards,
Rick

[Pelagic]

My girlfriend and I regularly sail our 65 ft steel schooner. All sails are furling type using manual winches and we are on autopilot about 98% of the time. Maintenance does mean that I need shore help which is easy to get here in the Philippines, but as a home the space is great, so the trade-off is worth it

To be honest, the bigger the boat/ship the easier they are to handle when docking. While the forces are much greater, a larger vessel will track better and will not be as skittish in any cross breeze or gust. The important thing to remember is to take it slow and easy and don’t try to power yourself out of trouble. If you are not careful, someone can get hurt.

[delmarrey]

Thanks Rick,

Nice article!!!

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

My girlfriend and I regularly sail our 65 ft steel schooner. All sails are furling type using manual winches and we are on autopilot about 98% of the time. Maintenance does mean that I need shore help which is easy to get here in the Philippines, but as a home the space is great, so the trade-off is worth it

To be honest, the bigger the boat/ship the easier they are to handle when docking. While the forces are much greater, a larger vessel will track better and will not be as skittish in any cross breeze or gust. The important thing to remember is to take it slow and easy and don’t try to power yourself out of trouble. If you are not careful, someone can get hurt.

My sentiments exactly. The problem is, most people have a hard time getting past what they know.

If someone were to learn how to sail on your baot, a smaller boat may scare the hell out of them.

BTW, Here, IMO, is the ultimate hull design (ketch or schooner rigged, of course):

[camaraderie]

That's what I like too...long fin keel and skeg hung rudder. Anything with a spade rudder is not on my personal "bluewater" list.

[Pelagic]

That is a great article by Ted Brewer and I guess the right terminology today would be “modified full keel”. It is interesting though that new designs are measured by how well they do in ocean races. They don’t seem to measure crew comfort or structural longevity.

Perhaps that is why there are 2 basic mindsets for cruisers. Conservative and Leading Edge.

[Latitude9.5]

i only associate with full keelers, i thumb my nose at the fins and flip the bird to the wingers.

Sorry thought we needed some humor.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Kanani

BTW, Here, IMO, is the ultimate hull design (ketch or schooner rigged, of course):

Didn't you mean clipper rigged?

[markpj23]

Originally Posted by Kanani

BTW, Here, IMO, is the ultimate hull design (ketch or schooner rigged, of course):

Well... almost. Now just add a wing to that and I'm with ya!

That wing has helped me sit more upright while aground... spill fewer drinks that way while we wait for the tide / Tow Boat US ....

Not that we ever needed a tow....

[cooper]

Hey that looks like my boat !!! But mines in steel.....

[GreyRaven]

Very good thread and, as usual, much to be learned.

Many years ago when I began searching for the “perfect” boat (for me, at least) it was, of course, to be a full-keeler. No question. All the advantages for long ocean passages such as stability, reduced lateral drift and so forth made the choice quite clear.

As the years passed and I sailed ever larger and longer ships and consistently ended up in the 50 to 54 foot range, I kept an eye on this issue with regard to handling and performance, especially in rough weather. We get a lot of that here.

The problem is, all the ships that I have sailed have been fin keeled so I have no reference for comparison. But I also kept a very close eye on the autohelm and the work it had to do in rougher weather.

My observation has been that the longer the ships have became, whether is was the Dehler 38, a First 41s5, a GibSea 442, a Bavaria 50, a Solitaire 52 or a Sun Odyssey 54DS, the less the keel type remained an issue for me. What I noticed specifically, both at the wheel and under an autopilot in conditions above Bft. 5, was that the longer the ship, the more stable it was. Course corrections at the helm were reduced and it was easier to maintain my course, despite rough weather and/or heavy seas. This, to be sure, also has a lot to do with trimming the sails to an optimum for the amount of wind one is experiencing.

If there is a fin version of a Ford F-350 Diesel it is probably a Bavaria 50.

“Spirit” has an impressive fin keel and skeg hung rudder. So I voted “fin”, although I must admit that I fully agree with Kanani, that the underwater he presents in # 34 appears to be the ultimate hull design. It is the best of both worlds and truly the “Golden Road”. But I must live with what I’ve got.

In the final analysis, if I had a smaller boat I would still go with the full-keel crew. I wager to say, however, that the longer the ship, the less of an issue this really is. Correctly trimming the sails, reducing and balancing the sail area in time and fine-tuning the helmsman and /or the autopilot probably also play significant roles in how the ship behaves.

My humble opinion.

Its been a pleasure reading your posts.

[Randyonr3]

There are positive and negitive points concerning both the fin and the full keel boats, and as many full keels have sailed the ocean waters, there are probably as many fin keeled boats..
One of the (series) of books that started me thinking of cruising in the first place was that written by Liza Copeland about their family of 5 cruising around the world..
Both her and Andy, her husband have traveled over 70 thousand miles by water and raised 3 kids in the process, 5 years of that cruising. And with all the experance they had, their boat of choice was a Beneteau First 38,
Andy Copeland had sold boats for a living and had raced throughout the world, and it was a fin keel that he chose to carry his family safely around the world.
As I said before, ther's good and bad in both kinds, and I dont think its fair to blanket one type over the other...
I'm biased as I own a fin keel, probably one of the best on the market, and speed was a major concern in my decision..
Awhile back I pulled out of San Francisco Bay heading for the channel Islends for the Lats & Atts Party.. I was within a 100 yards of a garden style ketch as we went under the bridge, and on the radio we spoke of going to the same place..
The afternoon of the third day, we were setting on the beach in Two Harbors drinking rum, The ketch showed up two days later..........

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

That's what I like too...long fin keel and skeg hung rudder. Anything with a spade rudder is not on my personal "bluewater" list.

Actually, it is far from a "Fin keel". These are some pretty awful pics but they are all that I have at hand, at the moment. As you can see, that's a "modified full keel" with internally poured lead ballast.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

, . And with all the experance they had, their boat of choice was a Beneteau First 38,

Which has a capsize ratio of 2.04

So again and again its many and varied leading to no solid answer.

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The afternoon of the third day, we were setting on the beach in Two Harbors drinking rum, The ketch showed up two days later..........

A racing type person may get bored in a full keeler through perception of not going fast enough and lose concentration therefore causing a breach of safety.

A person with a full keel may think it can handle a storm when the fin keeler has a para anchor out.

I think its more about knowing the particular boat one has, knowing ones self and doing the safe thing for both the limitataions of the boat and thy self

And if you don't like your selection, sell it and go buy what you want


As for me, I like the idea of 2 days rum drinking!

[Randyonr3]

Mark
Now that sounds like a perfect answer to a question that was never asked!