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**Adelie** · 26-07-2021, 07:58

Don’t worry about the name thing, it happens repeatedly. Usually it’s Adele not Amelie. Amelie really was a very good movie.

Dooglas · 26-07-2021, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateny

Talking about cars. Toyota is all in hydrogen and is fighting all electric battery cars. Toyota is betting that H2 cost will drop by more than half by 2025.

But it isn't so simple as the cost of hydrogen. Three problems won't go away. First - storage of hydrogen is awkward and expensive. Second - the most cost effective means of producing hydrogen aren't very green. Third - producing hydrogen from electricity and then using hydrogen to generate electricity is inherently inefficient. And then stir in the fact that the cost of Li storage batteries is decreasing even more rapidly. Toyota is on the wrong side of this one (as Hyundai already figured out).

upstateny · 26-07-2021, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dooglas

But it isn't so simple as the cost of hydrogen. Three problems won't go away. First - storage of hydrogen is awkward and expensive. Second - the most cost effective means of producing hydrogen aren't very green. Third - producing hydrogen from electricity and then using hydrogen to generate electricity is inherently inefficient. And then stir in the fact that the cost of Li storage batteries is decreasing even more rapidly. Toyota is on the wrong side of this one (as Hyundai already figured out).

Dooglas all good points. Nice summary where we are today. This energy technology seems ripe for a new invention that ends up being a significant market disrupter on either side of this issue. I know the Hydrogen Fuel Cell has been around for a number of years without a lot of progress. On the other hand electric battery cars are eventually going to face the problem of not enough rare earth metals to meet the demand.

**Adelie** · 26-07-2021, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dooglas

But it isn't so simple as the cost of hydrogen. Three problems won't go away. First - storage of hydrogen is awkward and expensive. Second - the most cost effective means of producing hydrogen aren't very green. Third - producing hydrogen from electricity and then using hydrogen to generate electricity is inherently inefficient. And then stir in the fact that the cost of Li storage batteries is decreasing even more rapidly. Toyota is on the wrong side of this one.

Absolute efficiency is immaterial.

Relative inefficiency and by extension cost are the important things.

If you have to have a portable fuel the question is at what point do the costs for that fuel and it’s systems outweigh the benefit of doing whatever needs the fuel?

In a ship a fuel with a low specific energy and/or low energy density is less of a problem than cost per unit of energy. The weight of pressure chambers to store the hydrogen is less important than the 5-10% energy cost to compress it and the capital costs of onboard storage. This is why ammonia is looking good. It has a similar energy efficiency but costs much less to store and use.

In an aircraft the weight of pressure vessels to store compressed hydrogen cuts into revenue generating weight so liquid hydrogen becomes a more likely alternative. Ammonia would be cheaper per unit energy but the low density would use use up revenue generating volume. Honestly with aircraft synthesizing kerosene from thin air may ultimately be cheaper than the alternatives.

Toyota is not making a stupid move, Li-ion batteries have a problem in terms of world reserves of needed commodity materials. It’s a calculated move that I believe has a low probability of success, but what I believe is just an educated guess.

rwidman · 26-07-2021, 11:14

I thought the point of having a sailboat was to power it with the wind.

**Adelie** · 26-07-2021, 11:42

One would think, but apparently a lot of sailors feel they should be able to pretend being power boater whenever they wish.

SailDutchman · 30-07-2021, 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateny

Will the future include quiet Hydrogen Fuel Cells helping to power private sailboats across the oceans replacing your loud noisy diesel engine?

If so would that mean you would put the sails up less often if you had a quiet hydrogen fuel cell to power you around the world?

On Bloomberg yesterday this guy was talking about how the EU was investing heavily into Hydrogen powered fuel cell trucks because electric battery trucks don't have the range. They are first targeting truck that return to the same location everyday where they can be refueled on Hydrogen.

Will BVI boat charters be the first to provide hydrogen refueling in the future?

Here is recent article in Yacht World on this subject.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/gear-r...-yachts-128948

I'm already avoiding Butane and Propane Gas to cook, like the Devil avoids Holy water. So I'm sure as hell not going tu put a 1000Liter Hydrogen bomb on board any time soon. I'd say take the old fasioned way and put up some sails. And those who have the real esteate to put up enough Solar might go all electric wich I think is possible by now. The few litres of diesel from when I see the Harbour till beeing moored isn't going to change the world. I'm not in the habit of finding solutions to problems that do not exist.

Knapweed · 30-07-2021, 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateny

Will the future include quiet Hydrogen Fuel Cells helping to power private sailboats across the oceans replacing your loud noisy diesel engine?

https://www.yachtingworld.com/gear-r...-yachts-128948

That noisy diesel engine will probably be a lot quieter than the inevitable R101 type explosion that will occur with compressed Hydrogen.

SailDutchman · 30-07-2021, 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knapweed

That noisy diesel engine will probably be a lot quieter than the inevitable R101 type explosion that will occur with compressed Hydrogen.

It's not even a clean explosion H2 +O giving Water only. But what happend to the boat?

Nepidae · 30-07-2021, 07:29

I've been watching fuel cells for a while.

My first peek at fuel cells, those that can replace a generator, came at an Annapolis Boat Show about 5ya.

A company, Watt, located in PA was working on a fuel cell that would replace a generator, a much smaller form factor and use propane as the fuel.

This was exciting to me since we were going to replace our electric stove with a propane stove/oven and having the copper tubing already in the boat with tank wells in the cowling for the propane tanks would make the additional piping easy to drop into the ER just below the galley.

Not sure how the company is progressing but I'll be pursuing a stronger look at their progress this fall.

As to using fuel cells to replace engine power, haven't looked into that.

I'm sure with the money the government is currently throwing around that there must be some money for the development of alternatives that could include a fuel cell to replace diesel engines. OF COURSE, to replace all of the diesel engines on the road, let alone rails and boats will take longer than I think I'll be around to see it happen I'm only 74.

pendragon · 30-07-2021, 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by zstine

The Solar Planet boat makes Hydrogen on-board from Solar power and electrolysis. Hydrogen storage much lighter weight than storage in Li batteries... so that seems like fairly green Hydrogen to me.

You cant use Hydrogen at atmospheric pressure. Even to just burn it in a stove, you need to compress it.To use in a fuel cell or internal combustion engine, the gas pressure has got to reach a liquid state.

Simpler to just hoist the sails.

Colin Stone · 30-07-2021, 07:53

For our boats, HVO instead of diesel for both engines and oil heating. Drop in replacement. I'm going to fill up with HVO in August. And better tank life than diesel.
And as Steve Dashew showed with his unsail boat, motoring full time uses less oil than making synthetic sails and ropes and trying to sail. The wind is free, but catching it is bl**dy expensive.

Hasbeen · 30-07-2021, 08:03

I would rather have some diesel, or petrol fumes in my bilge, than hydrogen.

From another point of view why the hell would you have a mast, rigging & sails if you don't want to sail, but want to motor everywhere. Personally I own a yacht because I like sailing.

lestersails · 30-07-2021, 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adelie

One would think, but apparently a lot of sailors feel they should be able to pretend being power boater whenever they wish.

My absolute favorite were those ads showing a water skier behind a (sails furled) sailboat. I don't generally think it is appropriate to make fun of anyone's boat (as I am boatless at this time - so any boat is nicer than mine) but this seems batty to me.