Future of Hydrogen Fuel Cells to Power Your Sailboat

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by SailDutchman

I'm already avoiding Butane and Propane Gas to cook, like the Devil avoids Holy water. So I'm sure as hell not going tu put a 1000Liter Hydrogen bomb on board any time soon. I'd say take the old fasioned way and put up some sails. And those who have the real esteate to put up enough Solar might go all electric wich I think is possible by now. The few litres of diesel from when I see the Harbour till beeing moored isn't going to change the world. I'm not in the habit of finding solutions to problems that do not exist.

Well said. After all, the main point of sailboats is that they are windpowered. What is this nonsense about "being able to drop the sails whenever you want"? Sounds like someone who should never own a sailboat to begin with.

[Janjorem]

The future has already begun: https://solarboatteam.nl/en/

Read their story on the use of hydrogene..

[Buzzman]

The issue for road transport in larger countries like Australia is the tyranny of distance.
Tesla's much vaunted 500 mile / 800km EV Semi truck could not travel from Sydney to Melbourne non-stop, as this is over 900km.
Apart from a few major hwy routes, finding EV charge points "outback" is going to be tricky, so there is huge resistance to anything that doesn't also have a diesel as 'back-up' or as hybrid to power a generator to recharge batteries on the go.
The latter generally uses a much small cap engine revving at near constant revs for optimised efficiency, so this is probably also going to be at least an interim power source.
Offroad vehicles in Oz are renowned for at least doubling their fuel consumption in low range 4WD, and this would have a similar effect on EV rnge, so halving the rated cap of an EV. As the best EV cap at present is about 500km, this could equate to a 250km range for an EV 4WD.
Cape York would be out of the question and even Fraser island might be a challenge!
It's not all as clear cut for those of us who live off the grid already...

[Medic 4 U]

Originally Posted by nwdiver

The main reason Hydrogen is still news worthy is special use like long distance trucks AND Toyota is behind it for autos, but as pointed out above……..distribution infrastructure ain’t there and is not happening any time soon.

Look at LNG for autos, it lasted about 10 years then disappeared, and it’s combustion by products where less than gas or diesel.

EXCEPT, a very smart man who owns a business that uses hydrogen to power all the fork lifts in all his buildings has invested HALF A BILLION DOLLARS IN PLUG POWER, the largest hydrogen fuel cell manufacturer in the world (that also powers all the fork trucks in his buildings).

Interestingly enough, next to every one of his warehouses, he also has 2-3 acres of land, that almost over night could have a hydrogen line run from the hydrogen support structure to this parcel, & BOOM, you have a hydrogen refueling station, right next to every Amazon distribution center in the nation. But you didn't hear that from me...

And Plug Power has sirs now that make their own Hydrogen. But you are right, energy can only change forms, it will cost (take energy) to make it. But it doesn't take any 'extra' energy to make gasoline, or diesel, or any other petroleum based fuel? And when you're done making said fuel, you still have nasty emmissions.

Guess what I deal with my Plug Power exhaust? HEAT, & WATER, PERIOD. Oh, and by the way, Elon Musk may bash Hydrogen powered cars publically, by he's invested HALF A BILLION INTO PLUG POWER (a $200,000 investment, & then a $300,000 investment) he supposedly wants us to 'fine tune' our engineering. There is a strong belief that he may offer a long range vehicle with a smaller battery pack (to quench the environmentalists), & a fuel cell to keep that battery pack charged. All theory for now though.

But there's no reason this same concept could not work on a boat. Bill Gates next yacht is 100% Hydrogen powered..

[Elleroo]

[QUOTE

But there's no reason this same concept could not work on a boat. Bill Gates next yacht is 100% Hydrogen powered..[/QUOTE]


Until there's a hydrogen leak. Boom!


Many years ago, there was research being done on hydrogen, in France.


Although the technology was in its infancy, they had a couple of big bangs, so stopped immediately.


Has anyone seen a car with Li battery pack catch fire? All you can do is try and cool it until the combustibles expire.


Now, imagine what will happen when that truck with a big H2 tank gets in a big shunt. I wouldn't want to be within 100yds of it.


Hydrogen for boats? you may as well go back to steam engines, and burn the seaweed you collect floating on your travels. Totally green system.


Hybrid with an ice onboard to charge the batteries is the obvious choice, and charge up at home at night.


Trucks. Has any of you been across the Nullarbor? Then try the Tanami. You'll never find a charging station out there for a hundred years, although plenty of space for solar.

[cndcruiser]

Maybe not too far off: https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/eco/nexo

[geoffa]

Lots of good stuff in the transition away from diesel.
Where in the conversation are we thinking hydrogen rich ammonia through a reverse fuel cell process.
I can put solar on my roof now for about 1 cent per kWh, whole of life cost!
Diesel sourced varies from $4 to $9 per kwhr whole of life cost.
With solar powered reverse fuel cells generating ammonia you have a fossil fuel free portable energy source.
Not next year.
Maybe sooner than we think!

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Elleroo

[QUOTE
Then try the Tanami. You'll never find a charging station out there for a hundred years, although plenty of space for solar.

Ummm...ooops....scroll down this link to Tilmouth Well Roadhouse and see they already have an EV charging point....

https://northernterritory.com/alice-...well-roadhouse

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by geoffa

Lots of good stuff in the transition away from diesel.

Where in the conversation are we thinking hydrogen rich ammonia through a reverse fuel cell process.

I can put solar on my roof now for about 1 cent per kWh, whole of life cost!

Diesel sourced varies from $4 to $9 per kwhr whole of life cost.

With solar powered reverse fuel cells generating ammonia you have a fossil fuel free portable energy source.

Not next year.

Maybe sooner than we think!

We don’t have to transition away from diesel, we have to transition away from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels take hydrocarbons out of the ground and put carbon dioxide into the air. The CO2 in the air is the problem.

If you extracted CO2 from the air and used it to create diesel that would be carbon neutral.

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by upstateny

Can you reference anything to back that up?

I agree the infrastructure for refueling is a long way off.

I have to agree with the put-down on energy replacement by H2.


There is such a wealth of information that I suspect you've either been copying Rip van Winkle, or are just contentious?


Here in the UK EVs are pretty commonplace - there are 6 in the country village within 250m of where I live and recharge points are far more frequent than petrol pumps were in 1946 Devon.

Unfortunately, due to the low reclamation rates of the expensive batteries, I doubt there will be more than a marginal take-up, by the better-off environmentalists, until such an infrastructure is available and costs come down.

[upstateny]

Originally Posted by chasfgr

I have to agree with the put-down on energy replacement by H2.


There is such a wealth of information that I suspect you've either been copying Rip van Winkle, or are just contentious?

It would seem we are both capable of being contentious. Oh the plus side it does provoke conversation.

Don't be putting Rip van Winkle down. On the other hand, RVW author Washington Irving you can put him down all you want. Mr Irving started the misinformation that Columbus set out to prove the world was not flat, which turns out to be complete BS. Spain knew the earth was a sphere. They just did not know how big the sphere was.

[geoffa]

In my post I noted 1cent/kWh whole of life costs for solar. If you would have suggested that ten years ago you would have been accused as having green issues.
I built my LiFePo4 15Kwhr system 7 years ago for $400 a kWh. Industry is now talking $50 a kwhr with significant improved energy density and charge rate capacity.
Predicting the status quo on these technologies seems to be the domain of climate change deniers!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by geoffa

In my post I noted 1cent/kWh whole of life costs for solar. If you would have suggested that ten years ago you would have been accused as having green issues.
I built my LiFePo4 15Kwhr system 7 years ago for $400 a kWh. Industry is now talking $50 a kwhr with significant improved energy density and charge rate capacity.
Predicting the status quo on these technologies seems to be the domain of climate change deniers!

Somethings are subject to developing technologies and economies of scale others are not.

The amount of energy needed to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen is fixed.
The amount of energy to compress or liquify hydrogen can be calculated from thermodynamics and no technology is going to change that. There’s probably a basic efficiency limit on fuel cells theirs paper implies it’s 83% with practical efficiencies being lower.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/47302.pdf

The best total system efficiency you might see someday for hydrogen fuel cells is in the 60-70% but LFP is already at 93%.

It may be possible to shave the numbers a little around the edges by using waste heat from some source to use less electricity during electrolysis or waste cold to aid in compression or liquification, but the total isn’t going to get much better.

Ammonia or Methanol or synthetic fuels are better bets than hydrogen.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by pendragon

You cant use Hydrogen at atmospheric pressure. Even to just burn it in a stove, you need to compress it.To use in a fuel cell or internal combustion engine, the gas pressure has got to reach a liquid state.
Simpler to just hoist the sails.

You are wrong about this. I have done the calculations, and it makes sense in the case of a trimaran where the outer hulls must be empty for weight reasons. Storing hydrogen there would make them even lighter despite the volume, you only need 1-2 cubic ft to cook a meal. It is more than enough to store weeks worth of cooking energy. The efficiency disadvantage is in compressing, then using a fuel cell.

I ordered parts to make an electrolyzer but ups lost my package.

Burning hydrogen directly in a stove using a catalytic heating element you have only the loss of efficiency of producing hydrogen. electrolysis is quite efficient (up to 92%) but typical homemade systems achieve 65-70%, but more importantly it is common to have excess solar/wind power at times. Also running an electric heating element is hard on the battery, and batteries cost a lot more and weigh more than aluminized mylar bags to store hydrogen.

Finally, did anyone consider we all have a plentiful source of ammonia from urine normally washed away? It takes < 20% of the energy to extract hydrogen from ammonia via electrolysis, and the amount you pee every day is nearly enough to cook with. If you run the numbers you can produce the needed few cubic feet of hydrogen using something like 100 watt solar panel.

Next, consider uncompressed hydrogen stored away is perfectly safe assuming you have flash arrestors or bubblers to prevent the flame which travels supersonic from blowing back, and pure enough hydrogen is not explosive inside the container.

Using the hydrogen in a fuel cell makes less sense, but not completely crazy. Right now platinum is very cheap and likely to to increase in value significantly in the future for reasons I will not get into, so I have been collecting platinum. If nothing else it is fun to hold in your hand as platinum is one of the densest metals

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Adelie

If you extracted CO2 from the air and used it to create diesel that would be carbon neutral.

current tech for this and diesel would be about $40 per gallon which is still plenty as many people claim they burn less than 10 gallons in a circumnavigation