Grounding damage in prospective purchase

[musher]

I'm considering the purchase of a boat located in another state. Spoke with the broker today and asked if he knew any negatives about the boat. He indicated that the vessel had been damaged from "touching the bottom" in 2003.

Repairs were made under insurance at a shop that advertises repairs from grounding damage. Apparently the repairs are readily visible in the bilge.

The broker suggested the boat was "better than new" after the repair.

I have no photos or other details of the damage or the repair. Since the boat is an expensive trip away, I'm considering hiring a surveyor to take a quick look at the boat (in the water) before deciding whether to place an offer and traveling to see the boat/paying for a complete survey.

The seller had an out of the water survey done for market value last fall. There's no mention in the survey of any keel/hull repairs--though the survey seems superficial (more like a list of equipment than an assessment of condition).

I'm curious
1. Are repairs of this sort generally able to completely restore the structure (strength)?
2. Does this sort of damage history greatly affect the value of the boat?
3. Is this a red flag that means I should just move on to the next boat?

thanks

[barnakiel]

You can't tell without a survey of the boat. Surveys are expensive.

b.

[musher]

Yes I would do a survey, of course, if I decide to proceed.

For the purpose of my questions, I'm presuming the repair was more or less properly done.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by musher

Repairs were made under insurance at a shop that advertises repairs from grounding damage. Apparently the repairs are readily visible in the bilge.

Boats are often repaired to a much higher (therefore stronger) standard than original however no quality professional tech would make "readily visible" repairs. That alone would give me pause.

[JPA Cate]

musher,

If you go and search the CF archives for a thread where minaret did a keel to hull repair, some time last year, if you can find it from searching his posts, there are pictures documenting how he did the repair, and you can easily understand that that boat, repaired is better than new. It all depends on the quality of the repair.

There are some boats that if he didn't to the work, I'd walk right there. A lot depends on what kind of a boat you're looking at, too. [I'm a bit crotchety and opinionated, and there are some boats I would not touch, without the grounding, but folks would get upset if I were to write about that! Many boats have "touched", and you wouldn't ever know, if it hadn't subsequently had to have structural repairs.]

So the answer to your questions is, it COULD be better than new; it MIGHT be as good as before and might not, and it will not necessarily be easy to tell which; and only you can answer the third.

I think if I were you, with all the travel costs, and the need to be in the South 48 for looking at the boats, and then getting the chosen one to you, that I'd try and line up in San Francisco or Seattle, 3 or 4 that you think you might accept, and from those 4, choose the one, possibly this one in question, but keeping in mind the others as backups. Then pay for the surveyor. It's not a perfect system...how good is the surveyor? they vary considerably, as does the quality of work done by boat yards.

Ann

[musher]

Thanks, I'll search for that thread.

With aircraft "No damage history" is a positive selling point and all things being equal an aircraft without damage history is worth a more than one that has been wrecked. This is in an industry with tightly regulated and inspected repairs.

So, with respect to my question #2, would you expect the grounding damage history to negatively affect the value of the boat--even if properly repaired? If so, by a little or a lot?

The boat is a cs36T for whatever that's worth.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by musher

Thanks, I'll search for that thread.

With aircraft "No damage history" is a positive selling point and all things being equal an aircraft without damage history is worth a more than one that has been wrecked. This is in an industry with tightly regulated and inspected repairs.

So, with respect to my question #2, would you expect the grounding damage history to negatively affect the value of the boat--even if properly repaired? If so, by a little or a lot?

The boat is a cs36T for whatever that's worth.

I've surveyed a couple of hundred CS36's and have long believed them to be the best production boat built. They have held their value better than most of that era (a telling point). A proper repair has little or no effect on their value but I do stress "proper".

If you are interested in CS36's it would be worth your while to read Rod Collins website. Rod posts on this forum as Mainesail and has refurbished a CS36T and it is a work of art.

[boatpoker]

What year is the boat you are interested in. I'll send you the soldboats.com data.

[boatpoker]

Rod's website is very hard to follow. Here is a better link to his "How To" articles. There are simply none better.

[musher]

Thanks for the info Boatpoker. I'll check out Rod's site. Boat is a 1985, I'll send you a PM.

[UNCIVILIZED]

This is the thread to which Ann's referring http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ir-164093.html And there are several more like it by minaret which get into the details of doing proper structural repairs.

The thing is, if a boat's had a serious grounding, thus necessitating significant repairs. Those kinds of repairs mandate that the keel be dropped in order to effect them, as seen in the linked thread above. So that in order to fully inspect the repairs, along with the appropriate structures, etc. you'd probably want to pull the keel. Which is a lot of expense even if no problems with the repairs are found.

Ann, I'd be curious to know what it is you're hesitant to post. Since when the truth is laid bare, that's often when a lot of things can really get well analyzed & learned from.

[boatpoker]

I have the data ready to send but it is in a pdf which won't attach to a post here. I have not rec'vd a pm with an email address to send it to.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by musher

Thanks, I'll search for that thread.

With aircraft "No damage history" is a positive selling point and all things being equal an aircraft without damage history is worth a more than one that has been wrecked. This is in an industry with tightly regulated and inspected repairs.

So, with respect to my question #2, would you expect the grounding damage history to negatively affect the value of the boat--even if properly repaired? If so, by a little or a lot?

The boat is a cs36T for whatever that's worth.

Ref the aircraft no damage history, I have been an A&P / IA for a long time and can tell you that no damage history really means almost nothing, its what is not in the books that will get you.
I.E. You inspect for work that was done and not recorded in the books, it happens. Most of the time work that was done, and recorded properly, was properly done.

Same with boats, you survey for the things that have not been disclosed, most likely anything they will tell you about up front, has been properly done.

However its my opinion that any repair, not matter how well done will adversely effect the value.
If there were two identical boats, one with a repair and one without, which one would you buy?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

However its my opinion that any repair, not matter how well done will adversely effect the value.
If there were two identical boats, one with a repair and one without, which one would you buy?

The market doesn't see things as you do. Sales history from soldboats.com, around 4,000 surveys with valuations and another 1,000 valuation/appraisals I've done show an insignificant difference if and I stress IF, the repairs were properly done.

In fact there are some vessels I wouldn't buy unless they had been repaired. First one to mind ..... C&C 33, there are only two types of 33' ..... those with collapsed mast steps and those that have been repaired. Every one of those repairs I've seen have been far superior to the original.

[boatpoker]

Sorry UNCIVILIZED. I been cruising the Bahamas for the last 8 months and my email has been on auto reponse. I've gotten a little confused by whats an email, whats a private message and whats a forum posting. I gotta clean that mess up, I've saved too much crap.

I did send the pdf to the address you provided. Did you get it ? if not let me know and I'll send it again.

I've also just this minute removed the autoresponse from my email.