Heaving to- Fore reaching- Lying Ahull

[barnakiel]

The Pardeys, as dictated by their boat style and crew strength, seemed to advocate going passive relatively early on. Then again, many boats that went passive got some very bad adventures.


So, my take is to split the experience into two stages:


1) while you are able, remain active (fore-reach, run, etc.) - drive the boat,


2) when you run out of stamina, deploy the weapons of choice, tie yourself down to the bed and try to rest.


You may be able to regain enough courage and strength to shift you tactics later during the event - change sails, deploy a different kind of drogue or parachute or just cut the lines and start sailing fast with the hell (as Moitessier did).


In any case, make sure your boat and your gear can take a lot of beating. You get no rest at all in a flooded cabin.



As for remaining active (driving rather than getting driven) as long as you can - this is not just about being safer (presumably). This is also about the simple rules of human psychology - doing something is nearly always preferred to doing nothing. Acting has a merit in itself over passive waiting.



b.

[CassidyNZ]

My only and hopefully last experience with serious weather happened on a new-to-me boat and it is true to say that we were very poorly equipped to deal with it. No drogues, no storm sails, no heavy weather tackle at all. Even my own experience was totally lacking (most sailors don’t preside over such experiences). What did I learn?

- My autopilot handled the boat better than I could when we’re running across the weather towards the “safe side”. Problem is the AP doesn’t know how to deal with a 44ft boat surfing down a 40ft wave. In daylight hours it’s marginally manageable but at night it isn’t.

- Heaving to is not possible and lying a-hull is not a good idea. We got knocked down by a breaking wave that hit us hard enough to knock cabinetry off the wall of the forepeak. Luckily this was at daybreak and there was enough light for us to get moving again. If you have a way of stopping the boat from surfing (drogue, etc), use it and run down-weather - it’s far safer.

- Running down-weather without a means of slowing the boat was also not a good idea as our boat liked surfing and it was near impossible to stop it. We had no sails out, we started the motor and motored across the approach seas riding up the swells and falling down the back. Go up the swell obliquely, not straight up

- With no protection in the cockpit we were also assaulted by flying spume (MicHughV) and wore dive masks to be able to face the wind/spray. Problem with masks are that they close off your nose, forcing breathing through the mouth only. We sacrificed two masks and cut the bottom of the nose space to improve breathing. Sounds like a small thing but 12 hours of struggling with breathing . . . .

- We called Maritime NZ on SSB to report our situation. They asked if we were in trouble, we said no, we just wanted someone to know where we were if things went south. They took our Iridium phone number then called us every hour to check that we’re still OK. Amazing support, try and get it wherever you are, it gives you strength when things are looking dismal.

Being in such an event is scary as hell but you learn to cope in the only way you can. Reading Coles and Pardey is all good and well but when it’s your @ss on the line, that’s when you find out how to handle it and I know that while I never want to repeat that event, I’ll be far better equipped (physically, gear-wise and mentally) to manage if it happened again. I’ve passed my heavy-weather books on to friends.

[Saleen411]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

My only and hopefully last experience with serious weather happened on a new-to-me boat and it is true to say that we were very poorly equipped to deal with it. No drogues, no storm sails, no heavy weather tackle at all. Even my own experience was totally lacking (most sailors don’t preside over such experiences). What did I learn?

- My autopilot handled the boat better than I could when we’re running across the weather towards the “safe side”. Problem is the AP doesn’t know how to deal with a 44ft boat surfing down a 40ft wave. In daylight hours it’s marginally manageable but at night it isn’t.

- Heaving to is not possible and lying a-hull is not a good idea. We got knocked down by a breaking wave that hit us hard enough to knock cabinetry off the wall of the forepeak. Luckily this was at daybreak and there was enough light for us to get moving again. If you have a way of stopping the boat from surfing (drogue, etc), use it and run down-weather - it’s far safer.

- Running down-weather without a means of slowing the boat was also not a good idea as our boat liked surfing and it was near impossible to stop it. We had no sails out, we started the motor and motored across the approach seas riding up the swells and falling down the back. Go up the swell obliquely, not straight up

- With no protection in the cockpit we were also assaulted by flying spume (MicHughV) and wore dive masks to be able to face the wind/spray. Problem with masks are that they close off your nose, forcing breathing through the mouth only. We sacrificed two masks and cut the bottom of the nose space to improve breathing. Sounds like a small thing but 12 hours of struggling with breathing . . . .

- We called Maritime NZ on SSB to report our situation. They asked if we were in trouble, we said no, we just wanted someone to know where we were if things went south. They took our Iridium phone number then called us every hour to check that we’re still OK. Amazing support, try and get it wherever you are, it gives you strength when things are looking dismal.

Being in such an event is scary as hell but you learn to cope in the only way you can. Reading Coles and Pardey is all good and well but when it’s your @ss on the line, that’s when you find out how to handle it and I know that while I never want to repeat that event, I’ll be far better equipped (physically, gear-wise and mentally) to manage if it happened again. I’ve passed my heavy-weather books on to friends.

Your post confirms much of what I've been thinking.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Bullshooter]

I have a couple of questions about sails in hurricane force winds, including a question about furling jibs. The furling lines I have seen sure seem small and weak for the force that would be exerted on a partially furled jib. I am trying to envision worsening conditions that would require gradually going to bare poles. Is a fully furled jib considered "bare poles"?

Are the posters here suggesting just going to the third reef (let's say) on the main, along with fully furling the jib? Or is it possible to fully drop the main and lash it to the boom in gale force winds? If not it seems some are suggesting fully removing sails during a gale and stowing them. That seems great after they are stowed but very dangerous trying to handle a sail during the removal.

Other than the obvious need to reduce/remove sail before it is too late, can someone suggest an approach for going to bare poles?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

I have a couple of questions about sails in hurricane force winds, including a question about furling jibs. The furling lines I have seen sure seem small and weak for the force that would be exerted on a partially furled jib. I am trying to envision worsening conditions that would require gradually going to bare poles. Is a fully furled jib considered "bare poles"?

Are the posters here suggesting just going to the third reef (let's say) on the main, along with fully furling the jib? Or is it possible to fully drop the main and lash it to the boom in gale force winds? If not it seems some are suggesting fully removing sails during a gale and stowing them. That seems great after they are stowed but very dangerous trying to handle a sail during the removal.

Other than the obvious need to reduce/remove sail before it is too late, can someone suggest an approach for going to bare poles?

Bare poles are simply as bare as you can make them and the term predates the use of furling sails. But I don’t believe the term includes removing a mainsail from the mast and boom - I can’t even imagine trying to manage the sail off the boom in any sort of wind (at least our full battened mainsail with mast cars and highly tensioned battens and large roach). If you have a stack pack it would be prudent to put a line around as well so as not to rely solely on the zipper. Remove or redirect and lash the main halyard so it can’t pull the sail back up.

Getting a mainsail fully down and well secured is not an easy thing to do with lots of wind and short handed so consider doing that earlier rather than later. Definitely downwind or reaching, less difficult if on the wind.

Furling sails are relatively easy to reef and furl completely, so can be left a bit longer while you can still sail. However no furling sail made for lighter winds (when unfurled) will be strong enough in 50+ knots without being way to heavy to use in the lower winds.

A tightly furled jib/genoa is certainly a fair bit of windage, but not too bad. Keep lots of tension on the sheet when furling to ensure the furl is tight. Ensure you furl the sheet(s) around several times, and have a decent Dyneema/Spectra core line and good clutch/cleat to help keep the sail from unfurling.

Storm sails are ideally specialised sails, though other than to comply to rules I don’t know many who have trisails and have actually tested using them. A dedicated storm jib, or several (storm and gale respectively), are very useful. Ours is useful even with only 40 knots across the deck. They have to be hanked on (by regulation). I’ve heard mixed reviews of the over-the-furl storm jib sleeves.

All the above is at sea. If you’re preparing your boat at anchor, mooring or berth for a hurricane then remove the sails completely and store them below. Hopefully you do this before it gets too windy. Don’t forget halyards, biminis, dodger, dinghy, bbq, etc. Bare poles really means bare poles and decks in this context.

[JPA Cate]

I'm sorry for this link showing up so far along the thread, but I was not able to find the link on my own, asked Mike Reed for his help, and here is the link to the thread he wrote about his experience using a Jordan Series Drogue on his catamaran.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ue-experience-
119799.html

His experience has led to some of us modifying our JDSs.

Ann

[sailcrazy]

following

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

FFS, that sounds to be grim on a good day!

My own two pennorth:
When the poop hits the fan weather-wise, the very best place to be is securely tied-up in the most sheltered corner of a well protected harbour, whilst the very worst is to be somewhere in the approaches to said harbour; if you can't DEFINITELY get inside and moored-up before the winds arrive, don't even try, aim for deepest water with the most 'sea-room' you can find.

We've always had long/full keeled yachts and have actively practiced heaving-to, heck, on long passages in uncomfortable seas it's not unusual for us heave-to in a F4/5 for a few hours just to get a decent meal and a comfortable sleep. Practicing is worthwhile, as much of what you learn about how the boat reacts in even moderate conditions, holds good when you're doing it for real. For us we prefer to heave-to with just a small triangle of the heavy inner-foresail set, which gives a comfortable motion and though we forereach a little faster than I'd like and certainly faster than when using a triple-reefed main; on the upside, reducing even further if needs be is a lot easier and significantly safer - there have been a couple of occasions where we've had only 8-10 square feet (<1m2) still showing.

We only once tried lying a-hull and that lasted <20 minutes; the boat might have stood up to the physical hammering, but we couldn't cope with the psycological one, so we quickly resorted to running under bare poles - we even collapsed the spray hood/dodger! That day we just ran, praying & tweaking the course whenever we dared, to slide past the island 8M downwind of us with a good half-mile to spare - it still looked CLOSE before easing back under it's lee and heaving to.
On the only other occasion that we ran downwind, we were two hundred miles offshore and it was actually (in a relative sense) quite pleasant, once we'd got into the swing of things; we deployed a small car-tyre (two for a while) on 50m of rope - barely enough, a single tyre on 100m proved better - and with nothing downwind to hit, we, or at least the Monitor vane for the most part, simply steered what was the most comfortable course we could find, which as a bonus wasn't even too far off course.

To my way of thinking specific 'storm' gear has limited use - this is based on our experience in what'll be considered 'small' boats (27' & 35') - insofar as deploying big drogues, sea anchors and even storm jibs too early can increase rather than reduce your problems and when the time does arrive to use them, trying to deploy/secure on a small boat with narrow side-decks is beyond dangerous; I accept that this might not be the case with a 50-footer, but I still don't fancy trying. If you do go the drogue/sea-anchor route, think very hard about how you'll secure it to the boat, the stern cleats alone will not cut-it; with just a small tyre pulling on a stern & midship cleat plus a lead back to the sheet winch, it felt heavily loaded.

Someone earlier mentioned big ships:We have a good friend who was a Merchant marine Officer for many years and who insists that the motion and more importantly stress levels were easier in a small yacht that slid between the waves than a bulk carrier which at times spanned them before crashing off: "the noise is horrendous and you can watch the deck bending".

Hope this is helpful, but I would reiterate: The sheltered corner of a secure harbour's by far the best technique for dealing with heavy weather.

For me it was 'Interesting' if uncomfortable at times..
Set off from Brixham in the last week of November '08 with a long term forecast of F4-5 N'lies and reasonable sea's, bound for the Ushant cut which I reached around sunset the next day.. nice 4ft standing wave at the S end as it was Springs which was fun.. around midnight the winds started picking up so dropped the 100% hank on jib and raised my only other headsail a No2 jib and put a reef in the main.. two hrs later it was an estimated F7 and I was going way to fast in the following sea's so I rounded up and dropped the jib then reefed the main right down and set the tiller to keep me heading the sea's comfortably then went below for a Cuppa Soup and some kip.
Woke a few hrs later and it was blowing a F8 so checked the headsail lashings were sound then the main and tiller and my position on the HH GPS and paper chart.. all good so grilled some cheese on toast, made a coffee and stuck my nose in a book.. I had set the tack so the boat was pointing to the open sea as I had no desire to close the French coast with its complications up that end.. not very hospitable in bad weather with my limitations.
It took 10 days to do the 300nm from Ushant to Vigo, most of the time the winds were F8 upwards with just the occasional few hrs a day when it would ease to maybe F6 when I would unlash the tiller and turn down wind and run for a while till it picked up again then it was round up and set the main and tiller before heading back below..
One day was great fun when a young whale decided to join in the fun and do some surfing with me.. first on my left, then to the right and a couple of times in front which had me worried in case I ran him down..
Anyway with the combination of the S bound current and N'ly winds along with my daily few hours running under reefed main I was covering some ground albeit slowly. I decided to cancel my original stop off at La Coruna as being a wide open bay with a shallowing approach and a couple of bars it would be a dodgy entrance with confused sea's so opted for Viveiro which had a big headland to the W of the Ria that would hopefully provide protection for the last couple of miles from the predominantly NW swell that was by now very big though with wind and current from the N not overly dangerous and only occasional breaking crests and wide troughs.
To line myself up I began laying hove to on opposite tacks to hold a favourable approach about 4 days out and taking advantage of the inward curve of the current as it closed Finisterre and fine tuning during the lulls when I could.
The day before I estimated arrival instead of running during a lull I took the opportunity to check my outboard and make sure it was operable when the time came.. it was soaking and would not start so I took the cover off and poured a jug of fresh water over it then dried it off as best I could and tried again.. after a few pulls the Honda 5hp fired up and I heaved a sigh of relief, ran it for a while to let the heat dry her off even more then switched tack and went below to the soggy bunk, a coffee and another book.
Finally came the time to turn and run for the Ria, so went out and started the engine, fired on second pull to my relief, then turned and ran before the sea's to close the headland and stay as close to it as possible for quieter waters.
It worked.. just after I cleared the headland the sea's began moderating and as I reached the mouth of the Ria I could see a couple of ships anchored to port of the enterance.. I closed with some caution as it was my 1st time there and the only info I had was a chartlet in my 4yr old Reeds Edition Pilot.. I finally tied up around 4am in the fishing port of Celeiro behind some fishing boats.
Climbed ashore to stretch my legs and after falling over twice I spotted a bloke on one of the boats and asked him if there was anywhere I could buy some smokes.. I had only catered for 5days and was gagging..
He told me there was an all night fishermans canteen across the harbour so I hiked round in my dripping foulies to find it..
Got my ciggies, then indulged in two coffees and two large Soberanos (Spanish Brandy) before heading back to the boat with a big cheezy grin.
On arrival a port policeman starts laying into me for being parked there..
Nao Permisso.. Vamos.. so I look down and there's no water.. the boats sitting on the bottom.. why are people in uniforms so thick???
It took 20mins to convince him I could not leave till the water came back then I would go upriver to Viveiro..
It was in Celeiro at the canteen that I learnt of the three lost fishing boats, one Portuguese and two Spanish that had gone down in my area two days earlier.. one of them was a local boat around 30 metres.. the others being of similar size.
So.. around 10am that day, 12 days after leaving Brixham.. I docked in Viveiro marina where I was storm bound for nearly 2 weeks before it cleared enough for me to hop round to La Coruna then another week before I could round Finisterre and sunnier skies.
The worst part was the cold.. to be honest I was grateful when a wave broke over the cockpit as it would warm me up for a while, in Viveiro the snowline began 500metres above sea level so I was grateful for the little electric greenhouse heater I had wired up to run off shore power.
A nice little port worth the stop

W

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

I have a couple of questions about sails in hurricane force winds, including a question about furling jibs. The furling lines I have seen sure seem small and weak for the force that would be exerted on a partially furled jib. I am trying to envision worsening conditions that would require gradually going to bare poles. Is a fully furled jib considered "bare poles"?

Are the posters here suggesting just going to the third reef (let's say) on the main, along with fully furling the jib? Or is it possible to fully drop the main and lash it to the boom in gale force winds? If not it seems some are suggesting fully removing sails during a gale and stowing them. That seems great after they are stowed but very dangerous trying to handle a sail during the removal.

Other than the obvious need to reduce/remove sail before it is too late, can someone suggest an approach for going to bare poles?

Don't try to remove a big sail in anything but very calm conditions, it's asking for trouble. It's much safer to secure them properly.

I do two important things to secure the big furling genoa. The Profurl design with the open spool allowed me to drill a hole near the outer periphery of the lower spool hub. I use a short piece of about 1/4" braided rope to run through that hole and then around one of the stainless braces that secure top of spool to bottom. This absolutely prevents the spool from rotating, in fact you could loosen the furling line completely and nothing would happen.

There is another potential problem which even a secured spool won't help. Several times I've seen and heard of incidents where winds have destroyed a furling jib after just getting a little edge of the furled leech, partway up the sail from the deck, and gradually working into the sail, pulling out whatever slack remains, and expanding the ingress to the point of no return where the sail rips and shreds.
So if I'm really being paranoid, such as leaving the boat for an extended time, I take the spare jib halyard and wrap it around the whole furled sail and forestay several time, so there are wraps from top to bottom. This prevents the wind from getting a major hold in the furled leech of the sail.
I'm not sure how difficult this would be at sea in a building wind, but if you headed downwind for the process it should be doable.

A number of wraps around your mainsail bag or cover is also good insurance, and not too hard to do.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

(...)


Other than the obvious need to reduce/remove sail before it is too late, can someone suggest an approach for going to bare poles?

This approach is the simple one: depending on you sails condition ant type, at a point you will no longer be able to carry any sail. You will be bare poled.


A boat driven downwind under bare poles will still make decent speed - as long as you can keep her squared. But should the wave toss you broadsides, you will find it very tricky to return to the preferred stern to wind position.


Hence many sailors deploy a mixed strategy - a smallest fore sail combined with a drogue towed behind. Should you broach, you will find it easier to bear off now. Also, you are less likely to surge and break something while the drogue acts as a kind of a brake.


Needless to say the fore sail must be man enough to handle the conditions. And the companionway must be bombproof. Mind most boats today have mickey mouse companionway doors.



b.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

A boat driven downwind under bare poles will still make decent speed - as long as you can keep her squared. But should the wave toss you broadsides, you will find it very tricky to return to the preferred stern to wind position.

Quite right, while you have boatspeed under bare poles, the boat will handle just like it does sailing normally but if it loses way and turns beam-on to the seas, it is effectively lying a-hull and most boats lying a-hull will stay that way unless acted upon by forces other than the sea/wind (sails, motor).

The problem is that in extreme conditions, certainly on our boat, running with the weather easily induces surfing which is not always clever. Having said that, we found that the wind isn’t always exactly aligned with the seas (passing weather systems change direction much quicker than sea state) and I found that it was possible to quarter the sea state while still keeping way on.

The AP did this quite easily when set to “wind” but ultimately we still started surfing and motoring into the wind/sea state was the safer choice for us, not having any effective storm-handling gear aboard. YMMV.

[hpeer]

Barnikel,

I like the way you toss off that little story. Those days at sea must have passed slowly.

How did you handle it emotionally? Do you get depressed? How do you talk to yourself to keep your spirit?

[Bloodhound]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Yup... theory is great but reality is a bitch to ride..
Just remember most abandoned boats look after themselves for a long time after..
The gamble is who breaks first.. skipper or boat.. seem the remember a Westsail 28('???) survived the Perfect Storm after being abandoned.

Westsail 32 actually. Ended up on a beach (South Carolina?), was towed off, and sailed to a port. Still sailing today.

[Davie J.]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Probably all you can do in a hurricane is run downwind until you run out of water. Many who think they can heave to haven't done in it 20 foot seas where the water overpowers any attempt to get the wind to control your boat. Especially in a non really full length keel boat.

Ask the people who participated in the infamous 1979 Fastnet race about running with the wind. Few of them survived unless they used a drogue. But to quote Olin Stephens, the master naval architect who once headed Sparkman & Stephens. "Driving through large seas, though, a small boat will have to heave to — that is, stop sailing, throw out a sea anchor and batten down the hatches". I would guess that heaving to may be contingent on the boat you're sailing. I have hove to in huge seas (I didn't get my ruler out) and found it to be a challenge but not too much of a challenge. As to the slick: you would have to experience it to understand just how effective it it.

[lituya1617]

My rules for storms: 1. Avoid storms if at all possible. 2. Run for weakest quadrant if you are caught out. 3. Do not run with the wind and into a strong current because these conditions push up very steep breaking swells that will repeatedly poop the boat and might batter open a hatch. 4. When worsening conditions threaten safety and vessel, toss out the drogue and button up the ship. 5. If there's insufficient sea room directly downwind, try to angle the course to avoid shoals. 6. If shoals cannot be avoided with the drogue deployed, use the engine to maintain a safe course. 7. A storm sail (>10 ounce cloth and specially reinforced) may make hull motion easier but only use one below force 8 winds - after which storm sails represent a threat to the rigging if they catch a breaking wave. 8. Strap in and hang on. 9. Always be ready to deal with being rolled, demasted, or pitch poled by rogue waves. 10. Never abandon a ship that is floating well and off shore, no matter its condition. Your lifeboat must be ready at all times and stocked with what is essential to reach shore. 11. If caught in a storm, always establish radio contact with the coast guard and give your position and a time certain to check back in to verify you are still afloat. Carry an EPIRB. 12. Be calm, move carefully, and pray. When all else fails, use your brain.