Heaving to- Fore reaching- Lying Ahull

[Saleen411]

I didn't wanna hijack another active thread on whether to stay in port or go to sea in extreme weather.

Once at sea, opinions varied as to what are the best storm tactics. I couldn't take it anymore so started this thread.

What I can't fathom is having sails up in hurricane conditions esp in a multi hull.

Speaking of multihulls, the reefing schedules of the cats I've sailed is to have NO main up with winds over 35Kts.

So all this heaving to business in a hurricane I've been reading about just seems nuts. How do you do this without shredding your sails? Same with fore-reaching. Seems like some advocate fore-reaching with reefed main only, some with a scrap of headsail. Again, with winds over 70Kts, how do your sails not get shredded?

Lying ahull seems like a last ditch effort if one doesn't have a sea anchor or a drogue, but REALLY sounds sketchy at best. Again, I don't even know if this would be an acceptable technique in a cat. Obviously lying ahull has worked for some, otherwise they wouldn't be here to write about it. But MAYBE they weren't in true hurricane conditions.

I offer NO opinions....I'm not qualified to opine. I'm also not challenging anybody's veracity or questioning anybody's experience or expertise. I do question some of what I've read however, hence this thread.

Thank you.

PS. I forgot to mention the breaking wave defying "SLICK". I'm having a bit of trouble conceptualizing the efficacy of the "SLICK"in a hurricane. Same with the benefits of throwing oil into the sea. Anybody still doing that?.....More popcorn.

[Cheechako]

Probably all you can do in a hurricane is run downwind until you run out of water. Many who think they can heave to haven't done in it 20 foot seas where the water overpowers any attempt to get the wind to control your boat. Especially in a non really full length keel boat.

[chrisr]

there is no doubt that a lot of the techniques that apply in say a strong gale (40-50k) go out the window when it's 80k

not been there (60k + is most i can recall) but imho all you can do in those conditions is run before it, with whatever you have available out the back

the other thing that is critical is water depth (which determines sea state). serious wind when deep sea will obviously create massive swell, but these could be a mile or more apart, and the breaking seas won't be nearly as big. in shallower water, everything is much steeper and then you are really in trouble !

cheers,

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Probably all you can do in a hurricane is run downwind until you run out of water. Many who think they can heave to haven't done in it 20 foot seas where the water overpowers any attempt to get the wind to control your boat. Especially in a non really full length keel boat.

Done it in 10/11 metre sea's in a 22ftr just using third reef in the main in a December gale in the Biscay.. not my estimate but Spanish Mateo reports in N Spain.. 3 large fishing boats were capsized and sunk within 50nm of my location.
Luckily I bobbed like a cork.
Take this with as many grains of salt as you choose.. as for lying ahull.. see the other thread.
A lot depends on whether the wind is with or against the currents.
Regarding a Cat all I know is with sails down in 35kts plus gusts the Bali4.5 I was skippering drifted nicely downwind with her stern quarters to the sea's, this was in the Med and sea's were maybe 3metres but the owner was getting stressed with the slamming so I just locked the helm and let her ride.
A Lagoon 450 in mid Atlantic I rode 40+ knots hove to in 5 metre sea's.. by hove to I mean backed jib and fully reefed main.. started with more main sail but the reefing block on the leech ripped out so had to go to the next down..
Hate those stupid blocks.

[MicHughV]

this is such a diverse topic that simply has no answer......so many variables...you, your ability and common sense....ditto for crew...your vessel.....your distance from land...sea conditions, wind conditions....duration and direction of storm....etc, ad infinitum, there is simply no one size fits all....you try something...if it doesn't work...try something else....what works for one boat, may not work for another...
when the doodoo hits the fan, there will be no-one to guide you thru' the process...this is a learn as you go process........there is no book, no manual, etc that can hold your hand.
you can read what others have done and prepare accordingly, but at the end of the day, it's YOU, that make the final call !!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

this is such a diverse topic that simply has no answer......so many variables...you, your ability and common sense....ditto for crew...your vessel.....your distance from land...sea conditions, wind conditions....duration and direction of storm....etc, ad infinitum, there is simply no one size fits all....you try something...if it doesn't work...try something else....what works for one boat, may not work for another...
when the doodoo hits the fan, there will be no-one to guide you thru' the process...this is a learn as you go process........there is no book, no manual, etc that can hold your hand.
you can read what others have done and prepare accordingly, but at the end of the day, it's YOU, that make the final call !!

Yup... theory is great but reality is a bitch to ride..
Just remember most abandoned boats look after themselves for a long time after..
The gamble is who breaks first.. skipper or boat.. seem the remember a Westsail 28('???) survived the Perfect Storm after being abandoned.

[hpeer]

A story to whet conversation. Not my story.

A couple of years ago chatted with a mid-70’s gentleman. He was approaching Beaufort, NC, south of Cape Hatteras. Got caught in some nasty and put out a drogue. His analysis is that he had the drogue out too early and slowed too much which allowed the seas to poop the boat. He took a knock down which killed the engine.

At some point he tried to make a check in call (wellness) to the USCG and got no response. But someone heard him and dispatched a rescue chopper. They dropped a swimmer in. Once the swimmer was aboard the Capt asked him if he wanted some coffee. After the joint laugh the swimmer told him he had 5 min to get off the boat or they would not make a second attempt. Being tired and somewhat confused he agreed to be lifted off.

In retrospect he felt the boat sea worthy and he should have stayed with her. But the unexpected rescue and ultimatum unnerved him and he went along. He had by then purchased a Hans Christen with the insurance but was still hoping his old boat would show up.

I carry drogues on both boats, 2 on the big. A Gale Rider and a Sea Break. My understanding is the purpose of the drogue is to slow the boat but not stop it. You want to retain headway (2-5 knots) without going so fast you broach or pitch pole. A Jordan Series drogue provides more resistance and will slow a boat more, or so I’m told.

I’ve only hove to once, this summer, to slow down and avoid some wx. Wind was in mid 20’s, somewhere on the beam. 2 reefs in main and she laid about 45° making a couple of knots. I didn’t lash the wheel as she was fine where she was.
By morning we had 8’ seas with the occasional 10’er. Yet we were sleeping below. Winds approaching 30. We then continued on. No drama.

The Sea Break doubles as a flopper stopper and has other uses as well.

No moral to the ramble, just relating my meager experience.

[MicHughV]

I tend to agree with the above post...I've only been in seriously bad weather...60 knots plus...one time...
I tried all sorts of things with little to show for it.....but finally streamed a home made drogue from the stern made up from a wadded up storm jib at the end of a long anchor line...150' plus.......all sails were down and even with my makeshift drogue was still doing 5 knots or so sliding down waves.....this modicum of speed gave me some steerage way, enuff to direct my boat where I wanted.....
I would do the same again..if faced with a similar situation....slow, but not stop the boat....for the rest, it's hang on time....these situations don't last forever...12-24 hours and you are likely to be thru' the worst of it....yes, you will be exhausted....

[Saleen411]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

this is such a diverse topic that simply has no answer......so many variables.l !!

Apparently so.

I would really like to hear what the professionals have to say on this topic.....seamen that have been there done that all around the world in all kinds of weather and sea conditions.

Even the big boys have issues with rough seas. I was watching a special on Hurricane Dorian yesterday. The show featured a large cargo ship that put out to sea to skirt Dorian. That huge ship was rocking and rolling and more than one crew member said they were "nervous" and a bit scared. This in a huge ship that cruises at 16 knots that could easily have given Dorian a wide berth. However, it looks like they got a bit close, speed made was only 8 knots and they were not having a good time.

I'm also still waiting to hear more about this magical "SLICK" I've been reading about. The "SLICK" generated while heaving to that prevents massive breaking waves from breaking. Oh wait, that would mean using sails in 60+ knot winds.

I wonder how the professional seamen would handle the described conditions in their sailing vessels. I have an idea.....

[ka4wja]

Saleen,

1) What I'm writing here is 100% the truth, no BS, no exaggerated stories, just the facts....(and, yes, it does show a bit of bad luck found me over the years, but all is good...)


Over the past 16 years, I've survived my share of hurricanes on-board my current boat...see details below...


(just an fyi, started cruising as a kid in the Bahamas in the mid-1960's...and did my first Atlantic crossing in late 70's...a few seasons in the Med....and many years sailing Caribbean and Bahamas, etc...}

Spoiler alert:
Heaving-to in a hurricane isn't likely....
(maybe those with storm trysail on its own track, etc...but, for most of us, it's just not going to happen...)

See below for the details...


2) Just to be clear with my words...here are my own definitions:

Some will say if you have a tropical cyclone pass by you, and you have sustained hurricane force winds, then you've been hit by a hurricane...and technically that is correct....but, I consider that just a "hit"/glancing-hit, with either inner or outer eye-wall...


When you have the eye come directly over you, where you get hit by the inner eye-wall (and both sides of it), that's a "direct hit", in my definition....

Again, not trying to convince anyone to adopt my definitions, just writing them here for clarity...





3) My boat heaves-to rather nicely, and does it well under just mainsail alone (and that is how I prefer it)....I've done it with full main up as a test, and done it with a reefed main twice in heavy weather (both times to deal with temporary matters....sick crew and waiting for daylight)....

And, yes....you do get a slick that you slide along in....it's kinda cool...
But, that's NOT in hurricane force conditions....
I just cannot see the small shadow of my boat calming 50' seas, in a "slick"... just not gonna happen!

{fyi, I have fin/wing keel and spade rudder}



I also carry a 16' Offshore Fiorentino Sea Anchor and a big drogue as well....(and, yes, I have deployed them both....in benign weather, for testing, etc...not in heavy weather...)

I've been lucky to have not needed to deploy either in storm conditions...





4) So, here are my own personal experiences with hurricanes on-board (fyi, I've been thru others on-shore, but that's unimportant here):


At anchor: I have been on-board and survived three direct hits (the eye came right over) of three major Cat 3 hurricanes....[Frances (backside of this storm had recorded sustained winds of 115kts, one mile from my boat), Jeanne, and Wilma] {sustained some minor damage (bent pulpits, stanchions, etc.) and scraped gel-coat, in Frances and Jeanne, from flying debris}

At anchor: I have been on-board and survived two hits / glancing-hits (eye was 50 - 75 miles from me, we had eye-wall pass over and had sustained Cat 2 to Cat 3 winds) of two Cat 4 hurricanes[Charley and Mathew] {sustained some minor scrapes of awl-grip gel-coat, from Mathew}

At anchor: I have been on-board and survived two hits / glancing-hits (eye was 50 - 75 miles from me, we had eye-wall pass over and had sustained Cat 2 winds, with higher gusts) of Cat 3 hurricanes [Irma, and last year's Cat 5 Dorian, which had weaken to Cat 3 as it stalled over Grand Bahama and clawed along the Florida coast]

At anchor: I have been on-board and survived two hits / glancing-hits (eye was 50 - 75 miles from me, outer eye-wall passing over me) of Cat 1 hurricanes [Katrina and Fay]

At anchor: I have been on-board and survived two glancing-blows (eye was 100 - 150 miles from me, outer bands passing over me, with sustained hurricane force winds) of two major Cat 3 hurricanes [Irene and Super-Storm Sandy]

My anchorage (and my dock) is just 1.5 miles from the Atlantic, just inside the inlet (and not much in the way of barriers to the wind)....and I have a small fetch of a few hundred yards in one prominent direction, but a longer (3/4 mile) fetch in another direction, and unfortunately an even longer (1.5 mile) fetch in another direction....water depth is 14' - 15'...silty-mud / sandy-mud bottom...


So, as such, even at anchor in a hurricane I have a decent chop/sea of 4' to 6'...might not seem like a big deal....but until you've been in the cockpit (crawled) with 110kts of wind, you might not grasp that it was like a whirlwind of sea/rain/foam....

Yes, if you add them up, that's 11 (eleven) Hurricanes that have effected me / my boat, with hurricane force winds, mostly at anchor (a couple at the dock)....in just 16 years! Ugh! (you see what I mean by "bad luck")



At Sea:...in the North Atlantic, I've been thru a few Full Gales (Force 9 and 10 winds), with seas over 25' - 30'...in deep water, many 100's - 1000 miles offshore...so no breaking waves, but still some whose tops are being blown off...

At Sea: also, on a North Atlantic crossing, I had Tropical Storm Olga form behind me, pass directly over me, and continue on past me.....this was also in very deep water, 400-500 miles east of the Virgin Islands...with Force 9 and 10 winds, and seas of ~ 25'....(luckily, I was heading west!)

At Sea: years ago, on different boat, on a short passage to windward from the DR to the PR, thru the Mona passage, went thru what I later found out was a tropical storm...Duh! (Force 9 to 10 winds...and wicked-steep seas)

Further at sea: quite a few other near Gales, over the past 50 years...


Never hove-to in any of these....but, I was ready to do so if needed to make deployment of sea anchor easier....but was mostly planning on / prepared for sea anchor deployment, (or drogue), if needed...

Unless I lost the sea anchor and drogue, I'd not willingly heave-to in a hurricane!!
The winds are wicked (I've been out in cockpit in 100kt to 115kt winds) and while I've not experienced seas higher than 30', I can imagine what 40' to 50' breaking waves would be like...

I cannot see even my deeply reefed mainsail surviving 100+kts....so, I'd not expect heaving-to to actually work for me in a hurricane...

Now, if I was planning on sailing high latitudes, and/or areas with regular high winds, and/or sailing during cyclone season....well, then I'd equip with a storm trysail (on its own track), and probably a storm jib as well....but...

But, those are not my sailing areas / styles....and statistically, I'm much more likely to be becalmed (or having too light of winds) than I am to be sailing thru a hurricane....so...

So, that's what I've experienced, and what I've done, and the reasons why/how...




5) As for what I would do, if having to sail thru a hurricane?

a) My first choice, assuming I had the sea room, I'd lie to my sea anchor....I have 450' of 3/4" poly-over-nylon double-braid (and plenty of chain if needed), and a lot of chafe gear (by hurricane supplies)


b) Second choice....if I needed to make headway in hurricane force winds, I'd try to fore-reach (or heave-to, if I had the room) with a double-reefed main....and hope it stayed together...

b) Another second-choice (or third choice, depending on situation), If there was some reason I needed to run downwind (such as when I was running / broad-reaching my way thru TS Olga), but winds were too strong, I'd deploy my drogue and slow down, and run downwind under bare pole...
{this was my plan if TS Olga had intensified}



I just cannot see even my deeply reefed mainsail surviving 100+kts....so, I'd not expect heaving-to to actually work for me in a hurricane...but, I suppose if all else fails, it's better than lying ahull!

(to be clear, I see "lying ahull" to be my last choice!)






I'm not sure if I added much to your discussion, or actually answered your questions?
But, I tried...

And, I know you were asking about what to do at sea in a hurricane, whether or not heaving-to is viable, etc....so, my listing all the hurricanes I've been thru at anchor might seem to be off topic, but I did this specifically so you would understand that there aren't many folks around that have gone out sailing in a hurricane....and that I do know what it's like to try to motor against a 120 kt wind gust while trying to take the strain off your anchors....so, I do have a grasp of what those winds are like...(btw, it is not fun, and I hope to never do it again!!)


{There have also been some winds/rain, etc. from passing tropical storms, summer T-storms, winter Low's, etc...but, that's not what you're asking about...}



Fair winds.

John

P.S. > 40 years ago, my parents hove-to for about an hour, in storm conditions (Force 11 to Force 12) in Bay of Biscay (it was early November!).....they were sailing alone, just the two of them....long story for another time, but the reason they hove-to was for medical reasons....my father had cut half of his ring finger complete off, while pulling in a deeper reef....
After fixing him as best as they could, they unlashed the helm and continued on...
My Mom was now the captain....
Long story, but after about 4 - 6 hours, they got into port....but with no doctor / hospital, and no French citizens willing to drive them to a hospital, they ate a hot meal and then put back to sea again (in Force 10 to Force 12 winds), with my Mom the captain and at the helm!!! and sailed another 12+ hours, arriving in a bigger port just after daybreak.....they had a small hospital, but it was too late to re-attach my Dad's finger, so for the rest of his life he had 9.5 fingers!
NO BS...
100% true story....

BTW, although my Dad has passed, my Mom is now 99 years old, still reads the newspaper each day, still write letters to family and friends, etc....but, doesn't sail anymore (severe arthritis, and CHF)....
(now, it's my full-time job caring for her)

Gotta; love that woman!

FYI, it was my parents that taught me sailing, and oh so much more!

yada yada....sorry for rambling!

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by boatman61

...a 22ftr...December...Biscay..

FFS, that sounds to be grim on a good day!

My own two pennorth:
When the poop hits the fan weather-wise, the very best place to be is securely tied-up in the most sheltered corner of a well protected harbour, whilst the very worst is to be somewhere in the approaches to said harbour; if you can't DEFINITELY get inside and moored-up before the winds arrive, don't even try, aim for deepest water with the most 'sea-room' you can find.

We've always had long/full keeled yachts and have actively practiced heaving-to, heck, on long passages in uncomfortable seas it's not unusual for us heave-to in a F4/5 for a few hours just to get a decent meal and a comfortable sleep. Practicing is worthwhile, as much of what you learn about how the boat reacts in even moderate conditions, holds good when you're doing it for real. For us we prefer to heave-to with just a small triangle of the heavy inner-foresail set, which gives a comfortable motion and though we forereach a little faster than I'd like and certainly faster than when using a triple-reefed main; on the upside, reducing even further if needs be is a lot easier and significantly safer - there have been a couple of occasions where we've had only 8-10 square feet (<1m2) still showing.

We only once tried lying a-hull and that lasted <20 minutes; the boat might have stood up to the physical hammering, but we couldn't cope with the psycological one, so we quickly resorted to running under bare poles - we even collapsed the spray hood/dodger! That day we just ran, praying & tweaking the course whenever we dared, to slide past the island 8M downwind of us with a good half-mile to spare - it still looked CLOSE before easing back under it's lee and heaving to.
On the only other occasion that we ran downwind, we were two hundred miles offshore and it was actually (in a relative sense) quite pleasant, once we'd got into the swing of things; we deployed a small car-tyre (two for a while) on 50m of rope - barely enough, a single tyre on 100m proved better - and with nothing downwind to hit, we, or at least the Monitor vane for the most part, simply steered what was the most comfortable course we could find, which as a bonus wasn't even too far off course.

To my way of thinking specific 'storm' gear has limited use - this is based on our experience in what'll be considered 'small' boats (27' & 35') - insofar as deploying big drogues, sea anchors and even storm jibs too early can increase rather than reduce your problems and when the time does arrive to use them, trying to deploy/secure on a small boat with narrow side-decks is beyond dangerous; I accept that this might not be the case with a 50-footer, but I still don't fancy trying. If you do go the drogue/sea-anchor route, think very hard about how you'll secure it to the boat, the stern cleats alone will not cut-it; with just a small tyre pulling on a stern & midship cleat plus a lead back to the sheet winch, it felt heavily loaded.

Someone earlier mentioned big ships:We have a good friend who was a Merchant marine Officer for many years and who insists that the motion and more importantly stress levels were easier in a small yacht that slid between the waves than a bulk carrier which at times spanned them before crashing off: "the noise is horrendous and you can watch the deck bending".

Hope this is helpful, but I would reiterate: The sheltered corner of a secure harbour's by far the best technique for dealing with heavy weather.

[MicHughV]

remember this:

On Oct. 1, 2015, the 790-foot cargo ship El Faro sank near the Bahamas during Hurricane Joaquin. All 33 crew members died in the tragedy. The ship was equipped with a voyage data recorder, or VDR, that could reveal clues to understand what happened, but it was lost in the depths.

I've only experienced 60 knots plus one time and it would be fair to say I had my arse handed to me in no uncertain terms...

[hpeer]

I read the El Faro report. That she sank with loss of crew was more because of problems with cargo storage breaking off a large through hull and loss of propulsion. Her sump pick up was asymmetrical so when she came through the wind and heeled on the other side she lost Lube oil suction which caused an automatic engine shut down.

If I understand it correctly the through hull rate of ingress was beyond the pumping capacity, but they might have been able to slow the flow, just guessing. Loss of propulsion, causing her to lay a hull, killed her in minutes. She had already developed a heavy heel due water ingress.

[MicHughV]

yes, but the El Faro had options to avoid that hurricane....but didn't...the captain was very experienced.....an almost 800' long ship....too cocky maybe....who knows....we can second guess all day long...the captain was in radio contact with shoreside facilities for some time....he certainly had options....

and no survivors, 33 people, one would think a handful might have made it......no liferafts found...etc..etc...by all accounts, when it went down, it went down quick....and the no survivors was telling.....without any sort of lifeboat, liferaft or even lifejacket....your life expectancy in the storm whipped sea would be slim indeed...I don't recall anybody washing up on shore anywhere...

I've opined that I've had my arse handed to me in 60 knots plus...there comes a point in time, where your available options are extremely limited...you can set the boat up in many ways, but your own exhaustion and fatigue can be your downfall...and if you are injured in any way....doubly so...and if you are short-handed or singlehanding......lordy...lordy...lordy...

I've read many accounts of sailors surviving and even being rescued against incredible odds in the most precarious positions or locations....

sometimes being lucky is better than being good...

[hpeer]

MicHughV
Yes to all the above.