Heavy Monohulls vs Light Catamarans

[GRIT]

It's true, comfort is subjective. But I still think, without parsing it out to the last letter, Chotu's statement was spot on. Heavier Monos are more comfortable (for most folks) than lighter ones.

I can't tell you how many times I've read threads here on CF, and was reminded of that (in)famous US president's testimony, regards "the girl under the desk".

While being questioned about the relationship, he states "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Good day all.

Paul.

[smj]

I can also admit that not all catamarans have a good motion. Out first catamaran would throw things of the shelves in a 1’ chop on the beam.....almost chased me back to a monohull! Not all catamarans and monohulls share the same characteristics. Some are great and some absolutely SUCK!

[wingssail]

For years one of the braggadocio comments I've liked to make when I'm in the mood to shoot my mouth off was, "I'll go 100 extra to get to a good anchorage." Meaning one which is not rolly. We've gone the distance and found the bullet proof anchorages all over the world, if there were any around. Back in the PNW the anchorages were universally excellent. I was spoiled.

But here in Mexico, where we are, within 100 miles there is exactly 1, and that is a landlocked lagoon with water you cannot swim in.

A few more if you want to go 400-500 miles.

So this year, when we've limited our cruising radius, we've had to learn to tolerate the anchorages which previously I'd have simply excluded from consideration.

And they were rolly. We picked our spots as best we could, and had some success. But usually during a part of the 24 hpur day we rolled. Maybe not bad but on some days it was unpleasant. During afternoon thermal winds, and night time offshore winds the motion was entirely acceptable, still even. But when the wind shut down, roll baby roll.

We don't have a catamaran, and no money or inclination to get one. So we tolerate the rolling.

I don't like it, but it's gotten to be not so bad.

On crossings, like the South Indian Ocean, we rolled pretty badly, but the wind was in the high 20's and there was a nasty cross swell (we were fast though). I doubt if any boats, cat or otherwise, would not have complained. When we got to Mauritius the World ARC world rally had just arrived and EVERYONE was complaining about the rough seas and rolling, even the cats.

So folks, you're on the sea, there are waves. A lot of boats roll, some more than others. Pick the boat you like for a lot of reasons, and live with the rolling if yours rolls.

[smj]

On our first trip to the Caribbean in the mid 80’s I learned what rolling on a mono was like. On our second trip in the late 80’s my feelings were confirmed.
At that point I realized I would rather live in a house than put up with the slow pendulum like rolling of a monohull, never again.
As I’ve said, there can be some horrific motion on a catamaran but nothing as bad as the slow pendulum roll of a monohull....for us.
Pick the boat you like and make sure the motion agrees with you as that will be your home!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by slug

All I ever see is catamarans motoring

Not even motor sailing

From a distance they look like oil platforms

On the ICW all I ever see is monos motoring.

Even in protected waters, they look like weeble wobbles.

[RELENTLESS 1]

When I started sailing it was with my wife father who had a beautiful - and heavy - KP 46. We would go to Catalina and after picking up the mooring the next thing that went out was the 'flopper stopper' - what an oxymoron! Every dinghy that went by, every boat, ever swell would rock the boat. We had a wind shift once and the swell came in the mooring field, bounced off the rocky shore and created the most awful pitch-roll-yaw I have ever felt.
Short Answer - we bought a lightweight Cat because 90% of time is spent on anchor and I do not want that motion - and the side benefit of enjoying my morning coffee on a rainy day where I can see the whole anchorage rather than a thin slice of sky through a porthole made this an easy choice!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Slainte1

If you can put up with heeling and rolling downwind the by all means go for a mono but I prefer a fast multi that is already home or anchored in a quiet anchorage. I will have a drink ready for you when you get in....if it's not too late

Very true and even in perfect conditions sailing in the groove on passage, you still have to live a 15-20 degree angles. You can deal with it but I don't consider that comfort.

I took the original comment to mean comfort in all phases of cruising (not just out in storm conditions).

In that case the really heavy monos built like tanks tend to be narrow beam full keel affairs. Narrow beam on reasonable size boats (not some monster 60-80ft boat), means you are giving up a lot of comfort at anchor/slip. Drop down to 30-40ft full keel monos and there simply isn't the room to put in creature comforts.

Also, it means deeper draft so you are left in more exposed anchorages rather than tucking up in calm waters.

[sailr69]

I don't think there are logical reasons to compare cats to monohulls . I have sailed on both and they are so different. cats seem to have a lot of flexing motions in heavier air, although they tend to not heel much no matter what. The rigging on cats are much more heavier because the lack of heel means more stress on the mast and sails. I would guess that is where the flexing comes from. As for mono hulls: light boats are more active, ( pitching ), as for rolling , with sails up I think there is not much difference ( light vs heavy). with sails down, the rolling effort has more to do with the weight aloft. (think metronome!).

[dwightsusan]

As the owner/operator of a very fast, very expensive, and very uncomfortable 47' catamaran, and the past owner of a number of monohulls, some fast, some expensive, and some comfortable, I feel qualified to respond. In boats you can choose only two of the three, Fast, Expensive, or Comfortable. Fast requires very light weight, Expensive materials, a large and Expensive rig, and the sacrifice of creature Comforts (my catamaran). Expensive gets you either Fast or Comfort, but not both. Comfort is Expensive and seriously compromises Fast. The boating world is a world of compromise. Our very fast 47' catamaran (typically 18 knots offshore, with the best sustained speed - outside of surfing - at 23 knots), cost something close to $700,000 up front, and burns up the thousands (B.O.A.T.) when sailing fast offshore (like standing in an ice cold shower, fully dressed, and tearing up $100 bills). I have been blessed to have the funds to custom owner build right here on the Texas Riviera and to cover the ongoing breakage incident to Fast. In sailing from Key West to Texas I find my Comfort in a less than 4 day passage, followed by a nice shower in a luxury room, after a gourmet restaurant meal with a couple bottles of fine wine. As an old hot rod drag racer, Fast is at the top of my list, Expensive is acceptable, and my Comfort (and interestingly also acceptable to my very athletic and competitive wife) is far different from that of most other sailors.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

One factor regarding comfort has not been mentioned - sea sickness. Irrespective of whatever boat you are on, be it it heavy or light, being seasick is extremely uncomfortable. Rolling is a big factor in that. Given that a lot of people are sick on ferries and the ilk, particularly older designs with narrow beam and no stabilisation, even being excessively big and heavy does not seem to help much.

My wife who is a cat evangelist has in the past, invited 2 seperate mono cruiser couples where the wives suffered chronic sea sickness for a trial sail on our boat to experience catamaran sailing, both wives found it cured their seasickness and both couples ended up buying catamarans. It does seem from anecdotal evidence that people sailing cats are less prone to sea sickness. Having said that, I have sailed with a couple of girls on a small heavy cat and they were constantly sick - but I suspect they would have been sick on wet grass.

These are interesting observations.

There is a ferry run from Sydney, NS to Port Aux Basques, NL across the Cabot Straits. I’ve never had a bad crossing but those that have say it can be wicked. I’ve also made that run or thereabouts in a sailboat a number of times. Some trips have been nasty.

The ferry’s are big car and truck carrying vessels between 300 and 400 feet IIRC. One year they decided to augment the run with a fast cat ferry, similar size, that they leased for the summer tourist season.

It was dubbed the “Vomit Comet.” I came back in it, my run was smooth. However you could easily see the ship had hard ware. Barf bags were strewn everywhere and the passenger areas were not being memories to normal standards. It seemed th a crew was just overwhelmed with the bare necessities and had no energy to spare. Many folks I spoke to did have tough crossings and there was something about the motion that was far worse than the standard ferries.

The ship lease was not renewed and it’s never been used again.

[hpeer]

Dwight Susan,

Thanks for that post, I’m glad someone brought up expense. With our budget else don’t have an expensive option. We have an appointment or steel cutter for many reasons but a strong one is the low purchase cost. Our purchase price budget was sub $100k ten years ago. And my Wife is very prone to sea sickness, although that seems to have improved markedly. Quite literally she would not walk a floating dock and even looking at the water would get her. And we needed live aboard space.

With small budgets and a strong need for comfort you tend to go heavy. Not sorry we did. We get to all the same anchorages and enjoy them. Our rolling motion is pretty good, just looking around the harbors and listening to folks who complain bitterly while we are not having any major discomfort.

I can’t say I understood all of this real well when we bought, but it’s worked out well. And yeah, we are slow. Can’t have it all, but love what we got. That’s pretty good, no?

Now if I was still working and sailing weekends in season then this boat would not work. Different situation, different answer.

[Happ]

I have a great deal of experience sailing all the type of boats you are talking about. I Captained a Hans Christian. I have raced Ultra Lights (owned one) as well as custom built Carbon Fiber rockets. I have owned 2 Trimarans as well.

First if you look at Monohulls the basic hull designs are different for the purpose they are intended for. A heavy displacement will never accelerate because of the weight but also the wetted surface which is massive. This will provide a more sea kindly ride at sea and at anchor won’t bounce around as much. A race boat will have a long keel with a bulb on it these days. Putting a bulb down low uses the weight of the bulb and the fulcrum principle. They have flat bottoms thus minimizing weighted surface. They will accelerate quickly but in a sea will pound making it ver uncomfortable on a long passage.

On a catamaran / trimaran the principles are still basically the same. The performance Cats and Tris have daggerboards or centerboards so the can go up wind. They are lighter and have less wetted surface. They will have a tendency to right on top of the waves. A cruising Cat / Trimaran have much more wetted surface and will have very short keels. That’s why they don’t point as well and don’t have the speed. They are dragging a lot of boat through the water.

If you look at the latest designs you will see hard Chimes on the boats. This allows the designer to have greater interior volume while maintaining less wetted surface. Look at new Beneteaus or Dragonfly Tris. These are great examples and the Chimes are well pronounced.

[Cap.George]

I build my boat (mono) by myself, I build it heavy, durable, a tank in mind where you stay safe inside . I learned my lesson: A boat has to be light. A boat never should go "trough" the waves, rather just fly over. if it goes "trough" the wave you loose speed, you banging from wave to wave.
Mine was a twin keel, adds another ton of lead, but you able sail shallow waters(3 feet in total), at ancor, the two keels damp the rolling. At sail they are smooth, but rather slow.

Later with a cat, the speed is amazing, instead of one day sailing your just in under two hours there. A glass stays on the table, you never worried about. But you have to keep it light, consider alsways what you load or the advantage is gone. The movement is more "choppy", at ancor huge space and very comfortable, when a speed boat passes, no rolling left to right but choppy - still much more comfortable in the end.

With the mono I was using a lot or iron wind, with the cat I used the engine more to produce cooling and electricity, but not for movement.

Conclusion: ANY boat should be light, a multi has more advantages then a mono

EXCEPT for harbour fees and hauling

[clakiep]

Originally Posted by Chotu

All the time I have chosen and been building my lightweight catamaran, I was after comfort. Comfort at anchor from chop and rolling, comfort of an enclosed helm, comfort of not having to worry about everything going flying when a 70ft sport fisher goes by, comfort underway in any weather, staying upright while sailing, comfort of space inside and plenty of light, comfort of feeling like you’re in a nice home while at sea.

I have noticed something.

A heavy monohull can get you nearly all the same comforts a lightweight performance cat can.

It’s amazing. Monos should be heavy. Very heavy. And you should just accept that they are not speed demons, but will get you there safely and comfortably in a steady and smooth way.

Lighter monos and average displacement monos are all I owned before. I think a lot of us come to the multi/mono debates from a perspective of not having cruised in a heavy monohull. They are 90% as comfortable as a catamaran, just slower. But it’s not all bad if you relax and don’t worry about getting to your destination so quickly.

The startling conclusion I’ve come to is this:

The very best catamarans are ultra light weight.

The very best monohulls are ultra heavy.

It’s the in between stuff that stinks.

After experience with both types : if going singlehanded or with untrained crew and want to carry a lot of provisions.....go monohull. Sailing with a joyfull party and at least one crewmember You trust, so can sleep at peace with him or her at helm or watch....go multihull....and if You want to carry a lot of provisions a big one.

[lituya1617]

Comfort, to me, means reasonable assurance that my boat will deliver me safely to my destination. This means the ability to take a major storm at sea without damage. No boat can resist the power of the sea so one needs a boat that will roll, pitch and bob as slowly as can be achieved an still have good sailing abilities - that requires inertia and inertia requires weight. I have yet to see a cat under 200 feet that would make me comfortable in a major storm. A cat is stable upright and inverted. A major storm can roll or pitchpole a monohull sailboat but it will always recover, float upright and be able to continue. A cat will just float upside down and the people aboard will require rescue. This is why cats are built with an escape hatch on the underside of the cabin. Now, a cat is fast but hardly comfortable when tacking into a five-foot chop. Cats have a flat underbelly below the cabin and the tall chop will slam into that with enough force to jar out the captain's false teeth! In the same conditions on a sailing monohull, sheets of water will be blown across the deck and require a good dodger for comfort but there will be no thundering blows to the hull. When running across a large swell at an angle, cats do an acrobatic twisting dance that requires even the most seasoned sailor to tie himself to a seat. Nobody can walk or stand in those conditions. Yep, cats are fast but if you are in a hurry, take an airplane. As for me, I will take a heavily built, full keel, high freeboard, monohull over any other design.