Heavy Monohulls vs Light Catamarans

[wingssail]

No, I think the way people compare monos to multis is the other way around.

Originally Posted by malbert73

...most folks are buying boats to a budget: acquisition, maintenance, and storage costs...

YES, this is what is "comparable" to most boat buyers. They look at their budget and say. "What can I buy?". They don't say "what is available with x amount of displacement, interior volume, or LOA?". Those attributes are comparison factors once a buyer has a selection of boats which fit within their budget. Of course, those buyers with unlimited budgets can be more selective. In their case all boats fit within their budget, so they can focus on other comparison factors.

And then the 1.3-1.4x LOA factor to compare monos to multis makes sense as a X foot multi is more boat in every way than a X foot mono (especially including cost)

I don't think it is likely that a buyer will compare longer Mono's to shorter Multi's unless they are both within a price they can afford."

And then once you apply that 1.3-1.4 factor most comparisons (speed, overall comfort, space, etc) tend to equalize and you’re left to decide based on preference.

NO, once you find that selection of boats you can afford then you look at speed, overall comfort, space, etc, and length.

[barnakiel]

From where I stand, I do not actually see many buyers deciding "between a cat and a mono".


Who has money, buys a cat or an Oyster, who has less money buys something else. Few people choose "between". Most people come with a pretty much fixed idea of what sort of boat they want, and then a few will choose between an Oyster and Amel, or else a FP and Lagoon, etc. Mono vs. mono, cat vs. cat. NOT Mono vs. cat.


Mono vs. cat s predominantly a summer CF fad.



The above applies especially to anybody who has already sailed a cat. Which is pretty easy these days. Just charter a cat then charter a mono, and then you basically know you want a cat.


Then who does discuss "" vs. "" is predominantly owners of monos who will twist and turn and find every argument for 'mono is better' - especially those who cannot afford a cat (and most cannot).


I have seen many cruisers that moved from monos to cats (.... do you EVER watch half-naked women on Youtube??? ...) but few who downgraded from two hulls to one.


And very heavy monohulls may be fine to look at, but they are horrible things to sail. That is, if you ever sail. Pottering along the ICW or the Dutch/French lagoons and waterways does not qualify.


Why is it so hard, for so many (Winston, my friend) to face facts?


barnakiel

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

No, I think the way people compare monos to multis is the other way around. . . . YES, this is what is "comparable" to most boat buyers. They look at their budget and say. "What can I buy?". They don't say "what is available with x amount of displacement, interior volume, or LOA?". Those attributes are comparison factors once a buyer has a selection of boats which fit within their budget. Of course, those buyers with unlimited budgets can be more selective. In their case all boats fit within their budget, so they can focus on other comparison factors.

Sure, I agree, but boats of comparable interior volume and comparable quality will cost about the same, mono or multi, so it's a quite similar comparison.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I think heavy is not the way to go. That said, heavy displacement is more doable on monos to preserve performance in general.

But most folks are buying boats to a budget: acquisition, maintenance, and storage costs. And then the 1.3-1.4x LOA factor to compare monos to multis makes sense as a X foot multi is more boat in every way than a X foot mono (especially including cost)

And then once you apply that 1.3-1.4 factor most comparisons (speed, overall comfort, space, etc) tend to equalize and you’re left to decide based on preference.

I can say with certainty I purchased my boat based on believing it was "the most bang for buck " I could get.

I'd like a performance cat but at the time in Australia I was lucky if I could buy a ply would Catamaran for what I paid for Sukha.

I couldn't even buy a lagoon 38 or equivalent for what I paid for Sukha at the time and IMHO the smaller cats just arent equal in most ways to my 47ft mono, particularly for circumnavigating.

A comparable cat was going to cost at least 150k more than I paid for my biggish mono.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think you nailed it here.


It is wrong to compare multis and monos length for length, for any purposes whatsoever. A comparable mono will be longer of course.

Compared like this, speed differences will mostly favor the multi if it's a performance multi, and otherwise will favor the mono, unless the mono is a heavy cruising boat.

And a really high performance multi like an A57 is beyond reach of any mono other than something quite radical for a cruising boat (converted racing boats like Rocket Science?). But to achieve this level of performance, like you said, the A57 etc. has to be kept really light in relationship to its waterline plane area, and light enough to have really fine hulls. Like this waterline length effects almost disappear, and that's where the speed comes from.

I have lusted after an A57 myself. That must be really fun to sail.

We recently returned from the Caribbean, our passage times were the same as the Outremer 51. I'm guessing an Atlantic 57 and an Outremer 51 would be similar in speed? There are fast/slow mono's and fast/slow mono's, pick your preference.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by Joli

I'm guessing an Atlantic 57 and an Outremer 51 would be similar in speed?

Yeah, no

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Capdave360

Yeah, no

Lolol. Yeah, he made quite a bad guess.

The Outremer is a fast cat to lust after when you have a Lagoon or Fountaine Pajot.

Atlantic, Gunboat (and lots of one offs) are in a different realm.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...I have lusted after an A57 myself. That must be really fun to sail.

I am sure they are fun to sail, but maybe you should be thankful that you don't have a chance, because then you'd probably be in the jaded category of the owners of so many of these boats: No longer interested. And don't hope for a chance to sail on one with them as the owner: they don't take them out and if they did it would probably be for their owner's party. It's not like they take them out once a week and you can just hope for an invitation.

Somehow a lot of the owners don't appreciate the boats so much. I see one every day in our marina. I think the owner must have liked it or else why buy it, but in two years he has been here once and sailed it zero.

I think he is too busy making money to care whether or not it is fun to sail.

There is another very high performance catamaran in our marina purportedly owned by Tom Siebel, who also owns the J-Class yacht Svea and several other boats. It has two fulltime boat workers keeping it in perfect condition. It has never been sailed in 5 years that I've been here.

There are 3-4 other large cats here which also never have gone out.

So these lovely large high performance cats seem nice, but I am thinking that I am better off with my lowly little 43' mono which I can barely afford, but I get to sail it often since I can't afford to do anything else.

But, ah, we can dream.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Lolol. Yeah, he made quite a bad guess.

The Outremer is a fast cat to lust after when you have a Lagoon or Fountaine Pajot.

Atlantic, Gunboat (and lots of one offs) are in a different realm.

When I was boat shopping I talked my way onto an Outremer 51 delivery from Tortola to Hampton VA. It's an impressive boat that can really sail. I don't think the interior is going to age well with all the sharp edges. Outremer is now trying quite hard to become the Oyster of fast cruising multis, building a customer education and support organization, and they have earned my respect for it. But the boat was too small for us, and the 5X was too big. Plus I'm too old to stand outside and take it anymore and I love the pilothouse on the Atlantic.

I think a lot of people with experience mostly on smaller boats aren't really aware of the scale effect. Wind and waves have a certain scale (why the old nautical/navy movies with a boat model in a swimming pool never looked right), and below about 50' it's hard to overcome that scale. The next breakpoint is in the 70's, and the next is about 100', etc. etc. The O51 is kind of right in the gray area, while the A57 has clearly broken through it and behaves rather differently in open ocean.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am sure they are fun to sail, but maybe you should be thankful that you don't have a chance, because then you'd probably be in the jaded category of the owners of so many of these boats: No longer interested. And don't hope for a chance to sail on one with them as the owner: they don't take them out and if they did it would probably be for their owner's party. It's not like they take them out once a week and you can just hope for an invitation.

Somehow a lot of the owners don't appreciate the boats so much. I see one every day in our marina. I think the owner must have liked it or else why buy it, but in two years he has been here once and sailed it zero.

I think he is too busy making money to care whether or not it is fun to sail.

There is another very high performance catamaran in our marina purportedly owned by Tom Siebel, who also owns the J-Class yacht Svea and several other boats. It has two fulltime boat workers keeping it in perfect condition. It has never been sailed in 5 years that I've been here.

There are 3-4 other large cats here which also never have gone out.

So these lovely large high performance cats seem nice, but I am thinking that I am better off with my lowly little 43' mono which I can barely afford, but I get to sail it often since I can't afford to do anything else.

But, ah, we can dream.

The phenomenon of unused or lightly used (big) boats is definitely not specific to catamarans, so I don't know why you'd use that brush to tar them??

It's not the boat's fault anyway, it's the owners' life and how he chooses to spend his money and his time. When you have enough money that cost isn't the first, or the tenth, consideration for every decision - the world just looks really different. Somebody like that has their work (which is likely a big part of their identity and they like it) and a wife and family with their own wants and schedules, and likely a couple, three houses to go to, and a lot of things they like to do besides sailing, and a lot of obligations and claims on their time. They have too many choices. Sailing takes A LOT of time, and despite the fantasies, it rarely fits into most lives.

Oh - and if you're really in Mexico, perhaps the Atlantic there is Javelin? That's Chris White's own A55, and he's been pretty busy the last few years with his new A72 program and other new builds. He's had the boat for ~18 years, he'll get around to sailing it some more......

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Capdave360

The phenomenon of unused or lightly used (big) boats is definitely not specific to catamarans, so I don't know why you'd use that brush to tar them??...

...Oh - and if you're really in Mexico, perhaps the Atlantic there is Javelin? That's Chris White's own A55, and he's been pretty busy the last few years with his new A72 program and other new builds. He's had the boat for ~18 years, he'll get around to sailing it some more...

I'm not tarring the boats. Like others, I've lusted after the Atlantic 57. It looks like a fantastic boat.

What I was saying is that, as fantastic as they are, they don't seem to bring the owners much pleasure. And if you can afford one, maybe you'd wind up being a jaded owner yourself, and not be able to have fun sailing it.

Yes I am in Mexico. The boat is called Rocketeer. I don't know which model Atlantic it is. I spoke to the owner once trying to encourage him to enter it in a local race which was coming up in a few days, but said he was going skiing some where. As far as the boat goes, I think he is over it.

[barnakiel]

It is interesting Outremer gets so many mentions while actually today the fast cruising cat is completely elsewhere:


https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...allResults.pdf


A 40ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by some 5-10%
A 50ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by 15-25%


Cheers. Argue less, watch races and rallies more!


barnakiel

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm not tarring the boats. Like others, I've lusted after the Atlantic 57. It looks like a fantastic boat.

What I was saying is that, as fantastic as they are, they don't seem to bring the owners much pleasure. And if you can afford one, maybe you'd wind up being a jaded owner yourself, and not be able to have fun sailing it.

Yes I am in Mexico. The boat is called Rocketeer. I don't know which model Atlantic it is. I spoke to the owner once trying to encourage him to enter it in a local race which was coming up in a few days, but said he was going skiing some where. As far as the boat goes, I think he is over it.

I just don't think it's boat-size specific - look at all the small boats sitting in marinas everywhere that don't leave the dock either......way more numerous than big boats!

It's about the people, and the gap between their dreams/expectations and the realities of sailing. The size of that gap is independent from the size of the boat. And yes, people do move on to different things beyond sailing at every level of boat size/wealth, nothing wrong with that either.....

Rocketer is A55 #2, built in 2001. The boat used to do crewed charter in the Caribbean, I don't know anything about the owner or even if it's the original owner.

I can afford my A57, I'm not jaded, and I enjoy sailing her. I also really like skiing, and will get off the boat to do it. I also may go back to work, haven't decided - doesn't mean I have to sell the boat. So what if I use her lightly or even not at all for a while if she's there when I want her? Bareboat cats are awful, and I don't like charter sailing with crew on the nicer boats. And buying/selling boats is a PIA and a time sink.

See - lots of ways to go sailing......why bash other people's choices just because they have more money??

[john manning]

Originally Posted by smj

Do your catamaran experiences include only the Escale or have you sailed others? I would agree the Prouts are one of the most seaworthy of all Catamaran’s but probably not comfortable upwind.

I have sailed two other catamarans, an Admiral 38 and another I did not know the type. They were both older designs with low tunnel clearance. I have never sailed a newer design with high tunnel clearance. They look like they would be much more comfortable. It is waves hitting the centre of cats that make them uncomfortable. Mine also has the problem of being slowed significantly when trying to motor upwind. Having to move slowly while still experiencing pounding is simply annoying. The pitching in a cat is not really any different to the same length monohull but it seems more significant because there is very little roll. I have always thought this made pitching harsher in cats.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

It is interesting Outremer gets so many mentions while actually today the fast cruising cat is completely elsewhere:


https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...allResults.pdf


A 40ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by some 5-10%
A 50ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by 15-25%


Cheers. Argue less, watch races and rallies more!


barnakiel

The Marsaudons are fast, and they're also really spartan compared to even an Outremer of similar size. Once you put the same kit of equipment on it the speed gap will likely narrow quite a lot and the interior will still look really plain. And besides, the Marsaudon is attracting genuine racing sailors who are more likely to sail the boat to its potential. 13 days from Palma to St. Lucia on a 42' boat - that's really working it!! And sub-12 days on a TS5 - those people weren't loafing either, they were working hard. That's the problem looking at cruising races - you just don't know how hard the crews are competing. Put that TS5 crew on any other boat, bet you cut a bunch off the time.....

And handicapping is really a black art - 17 days on a Lagoon 52 is not killer; who knows why they correct to #3 and #4??

My first Atlantic crossing in 1983 was on my second boat, a Laurent Giles designed Salar 40, slow as dirt, but I really liked that boat - bought her in Inverness and sold her 2 years/8,000 miles later in Annapolis. We did 20 days Canaries to Antigua. Plenty of time to move on from basic sun sights to shooting moon and stars too!!