Heavy weather, can we be honest?

[B00B00]

Also for the record it NEVER looks as windy in videos as it does in real life. If it looks windy in a video then its ***ken howling!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I've done a few miles in various parts of the world and its rare that I've seen sustained winds over 40kts in my 30yrs of voyaging.. can count them on 2 hands.. Usually its around F7 gusting to F8..
Exceptions were the Biscay in December on a 22ftr when I crossed most of the Biscay backwards as fronts rolled through.. winds up to 60kts+ and sea's upto 11metres.. another time was 100nm W of the Azores which saw me hove to in sustained 50kts+ and rain that had visibility down to 100metres at times for 5days.. there were about 50 of us scattered to the W-SW that year waiting for the weather to ease.
But these occasions are as you say rare.. and can be avoided with planning and good sense by the cruising sailor.

The highlighted events were not my estimates but statements by the Spanish Marine Service (2008) in the Biscay and the Azores happening was quoted by the Portuguese Coast Guard (2005) in Horta.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

force 8+ conditions about 1% in the tropics and 3% in the higher latitudes (in the summer). . . . . a day or two per year of storm force winds on average (closer to 1 day/month in the Southern Ocean). Contrast that with the fact that we spend about 30% of our time offshore in winds under 10 knots.

That's over some +2 circumnavigations, one easterly and the other westerly, including the southern ocean and much of the high(ish) latitudes.

We had much more breakage in light airs - due to sails slating and popping in ocean swells. But the few strong weather encounters seem to stick in ones memory more, and they certainly make better 'sea stories'.

ON our Atlantic crossing we had numerous days with 0.0 knots of wind. The wear and tear on the rigging is unbelievable when there is no wind.

I've had 1 time of sustained 50 knot wids and that was in the English Channel - waves were horrible (about 6 meters) but it blew over druing the night.

Other than that - we've had 14 hours of gales force crossing the Biscay and once we had 35-40 knot winds in the Baltic for most of a day

We can't dish up with 100,000 miles of sailing, but we've done something like 20,000 and that's all we've seen

[BandB]

Originally Posted by B00B00

35fter at 27kts boatspeed, if you dont believe me then watch the video.... We had 35-55kts for about 5hrs, probably one of the best 5 hrs of my life... Skip the first 30 sec.

I have no way to judge the wind, but watching the video, I don't see 35 ft. Perhaps it looked like more in person.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by BandB

I have no way to judge the wind, but watching the video, I don't see 35 ft. Perhaps it looked like more in person.

I'm pretty sure he was saying that the boat was 35', not the seas...

[Jd1]

Originally Posted by B00B00

This was the last time I sailed down there. 35fter at 27kts boatspeed, if you dont believe me then watch the video.... We had 35-55kts for about 5hrs, probably one of the best 5 hrs of my life.

That looks like an awesome ride !
I am not doubting the speed but could somebody please explain to me how you can get a displacement hull to go that kind of a speed? I can see a cat doing that but a mono? Is it just the shape of the hull (wide, flat ass) that causes a surfing action?
What are the negatives on a hull that can go that fast or why aren't normal boats built with a hull that can go that fast ?

[TJ D]

There are lots of monos capable of these kinds of speeds. My boat has exceeded 35 knots under a previous (crazier/richer) owner. I've only had her up in the 20's a couple of times, but I'm not racing, either.

This is called 'non-displacement mode' AKA planing

You need light weight, a generally flat bottom, and lots of sail up. Downsides? Well, unless you go to pretty expensive, exotic materials, it's hard to build one strong enough.

As Dockhead likes to say- You can have fast, strong, or cheap- pick any two!

Or something like that.

The other downside is that upwind, your dedicated downwind sled will cost you some fillings. They slam terribly, most of them.

[ka4wja]

TJ,
1) Well, I'm with you here, my friend...

Although, on Atlantic crossings, etc., I have personally sailed through a few full-gales and been over-took by a tropical storm....and while at anchor have ridden-out three Cat 3 hurricanes (yes, my bad luck!)....and been beat-up by some really nasty weather in the Mona Passage...experienced more wicked squalls and thunderstorms, etc., than I can count....for the most part, I have encountered more calms and days with too light of wind than days of "heavy weather"....

Originally Posted by TJ D

So, it's got me wondering- how many of you have really dealt with true storm conditions in your travels? I'm not talking about the Southern ocean/Cape Horn crowd, of course, but just ordinary cruisers doing ordinary routes in the proper season.

Anyway, no offense to anybody. I'm not doubting anyone's word, but I'm just pointing out the slight disparity between my own experience and what others have reported.

I started cruising as a kid in the 1960's (my first cruise was thru the Bahamas in 1965, then the DR, PR and the BVI in 1966/67...and then further down-island in 67/68....I think we were trying to get home from Martinique when the riots from the democratic convention were going on in aug '68 and some of the French on island wanted us to stay there "so we would be safe, from the destruction of the US"...), and in addition to sailing / cruising / voyaging throughout the Bahamas, Caribbean, N. Atlantic and the Med, and many passages to/from Caribbean and Florida, on and off over the past 50 years....I've also made a few Atlantic crossings (both ways)....some decades ago, before GPS, etc., and some more recent...
The reason I mention this background is to illustrate your point that even without much of today's modern forecasting science and rapid dissemination, things still weren't as bad as some may tout on-line...

Now to be absolutely clear, I'm one that has experienced heavy weather (and, after the first few minutes, it ain't fun!), and I'm one that believes that every offshore sailor / ocean passage maker, needs to be prepared for heavy weather and understand that you can't out-run it....but, also a realist in that most cruisers will never see this heavy weather, nor even most offshore sailors...



2) Here are just some of my personal experiences, of heavy weather...
Of course over the decades, lots of 20 - 25 kts daily sailing winds, and even lots of 25 - 30 kts of blustery sailing days....
But, above those winds speeds....not too much!!
Here are the ones that stand out....off the top of my head, WITHOUT any exaggeration !!

--- A wicked gale....exact wind speed unknown, but estimate 35 - 45kts....along north coast of the DR, in late 60's....lasted about 18 - 24 hours...lost dinghy, but no other issues...
--- Seriously nasty sea (12' - 15' and steep, and some breaking waves..) but winds only 25 - 30 kts, in Mona Passage...lasted about 18 - 24 hours...no issues...

--- 30 - 40 kts of "offshore breeze" (land breeze) when sailing from Savanah, GA to S. Florida (approx. 50 miles of the coast), with very small sea (2' - 4')...lasted about 24 hours....no issues

--- Gale, on a westbound Atlantic crossing (late November)....winds F8 / 35 kts, building to F9 / 40-45 kts, for almost 3 days....seas were 15' - 20'...all from the stern, so no problems except we delayed Thanksgiving dinner one day, it was too rough to cook a 5 course dinner!!

--- Full Gale, on a recent eastbound Atlantic crossing....lasted about 30 to 36 hours...(F8 / 35+ kts for ~12 hours, then built from F8 to F9 quickly, and then quickly to F10, and then held at 45 - 50kts, for 6 - 8 hours, then back to F8 or so, for another 12 hours....) Before this seas were the usual 8' - 10' swell, but built quickly to 20' - 24' and although I was in really deep water (100 miles north of Bermuda, heading to Azores) we did have some breaking waves / tops of waves were being torn off by the wind, not because of ocean-bottom friction....
This was the only time I've experienced breaking waves on the open ocean....sure near shore all the time, and entering harbors, etc. it's normal....but out in on the high seas, in deep water, breaking waves are rare....and this is the only time I can remember actually being in these, for many hours...
{oh, and BTW, this night (always happens at night, you know!) is when my damned autopilot drive bracket came loose and the drive decided to take the night off and rest in the bottom of my lazarette!!!
Hand steering through this Gale was a pain....but doable!!
Took until late the next day for weather to subside enough to allow us to empty lazarette enough, to get inside and make repairs....which we did while sailing under reefed-main and improving weather....temp fix lasted until it loosened-up again just about 150 miles from Gibraltar....final fix in Gib has last 10 years and another crossing just fine!!}
If I had been 100 miles further north to northeast, or worse 200 miles further northeast, this would've been a F10 storm for 24 - 30 hours... (I have to give thanks here to NOAA/NWS ocean prediction center meteorologists on my WeFax, and to Herb Hilgenberg, who showed this building Low / storm, and allowed me to decided to turn east and then southeast, to avoid the worst of this!! Even though I was heading to Azores, I made the decision to change course to avoid the worst of this, and glad I did! FYI, ironically just a few days later we were almost becalmed!!) and even though we were not in F10 for too long (6 - 10 hours, as I recall), I did have my big 16' Fiornetino parachute sea-anchor and rode, at the ready to use if I decided it was needed, which it wasn't...

--- Tropical Storm Olga....
Yep, I sailed right thru this lady....okay, not on purpose, of course...
Actually, on another Atlantic crossing (Dec 2007) as we were 4 days away from landfall in the Virgin Isalnds, a wicked Low formed from a deep trough that had been sitting there awhile, and with winds building and a big fetch of the tropical Atlantic (and fairly warm sea surface temps) she just built into Tropical Strom Olga (actually referred to as "sub-tropical storm Olga" as she formed in December and had a mid-level/upper-air Low associated with it, but not directly over the surface Low)...
She was an asymmetrical storm, but had good outflow....
She actually formed around me and behind me, and then over-took me, as I continued on westward....this meant that I sailed thru her for about 4 days (2 - 3 days before she was named and 2 days afterward)...luckily as she passed me, I was just to the north of the asymmetrical center, and we didn't have to beat into this nasty girl, but just ride along...
{Now here, while I did have decent weather forecasts (WeFax and Herb!) there wasn't much in the way of consensus of how much was going to develop nor how intense it would be...but kudos to Herb here, as he was saying for days that there was a good chance of a "out-of-season" tropical storm out there and that we should be prepared....
I was, of course, prepared before we even left Lanzorote, Canary....but there wasn't too much info to base a decision on, on which direction to go to avoid the worst of what may be building....to be honest, I thought of tuning north for a bit, but just headed for the north end of Anegada (St. Thomas was my final destination), and I got a bit lucky as the asymmetrical nature of Olga allowed me to stay north of her center, as I continued on...}


3) The reason I mentioned all of these specific experiences, is to contrast these with the fact that I have flown my big (~ 1450 sq ft) Asym spinnaker more often than I've experienced these heavy weather incidents!!
About 3 years ago, I friend sailing a sistership to my current boat (a 47' sloop / Catalina 470) asked how often did I fly my big asym, especially on an ocean passage...
Well, I looked thru my log book, and even I was surprised to find out that on ocean passages I've flown it about 17% of the time!!!
Yes, that's right 17%....I would've guessed 5% - 10%, but looking at my log book showed 17%....and that was including the above incidents of heavy weather (on my Atlantic crossings)!!

And, understand that I'm not even talking about long downwind milk runs here, where you'd pole-out your headsail, etc....but eastbound Atlantic crossings and westbound Atlantic crossings...

So, less than 5% (actually a LOT less than 5%!!!) of the time have I experienced heavy weather (gales...winds over 30 kts...etc.) for more than an hour or two (more than a passing squall)....and this is mainly offshore sailing....
But...

But, a caveat here....I'm not much of a high-latitude sailor....not at all....actually, except for some activity in Long Island Sound, and in summertime Med, most of my sailing (and all of my offshore sailing) has been between 10* N and 40* N...(my parents, on the otherhand, didn't mind the cold....they sailed the Heberdies and Orkneys, as well as most of the N. Atl, Med, etc...)
Just saying that when and where someone sails can make a difference in what their normal / usual weather state is...


4) Now, as for "storms" Force 10 and above....except for what I wrote above...the only other storms have been at anchor...
Three Cat 3 Hurricanes....
Hurricane Frances and Jeanne, direct hits on me (anchored in St. Lucie River, just one mile from their landfalls) in 2004....and Hurricane Wilma, direct hit as it came up the coast in 2005....
Yes, I saw 100+ kts, sustained on my display...and gusts to ~ 120kts....but again this was at anchor, not at sea...



Okay, gotta go....making dinner for my Mom, who turns 96 in a couple weeks!! (btw, she's the one who taught me how to cook at sea...and my late father taught me how to repair stuff at sea, as well as how to use a sextant, etc...)

Oh, and I haven't read any of the other posts here, cuz I didn't want to get distracted, nor get discouraged...


Fair winds...

John

[B00B00]

Also an interesting point, I think racers often see substantially more wind than cruisers.
When cruising I haven't seen that many big gales at sea as we usually avoid being out there at that time but when racing we have set start dates and courses so often end up getting snotted when the cruisers are safely tucked up in a secure anchorage (where all sensible yachties should be at that time...!)

It seems that every time I have been proper hammered at sea its been due to time constraints or races.

[barnakiel]

To me, the wind seemed frightening but once.

I grew up in a generally windy place where we would have at least one F12 gale a year and a few F10 gales granted. Our home was on a dune, facing the wind.

When I did get very scared was in thunderstorms. Last time off Cabo Verde I actually thought that was that. I am not religious and so I pray only when seriously scared. But it got to the point where I stopped - why pray if the God was obviously going to kill me in next 5 minutes.

I have also found some waves very ugly to look at - seen rollers in open water N of NZ. I live in the Canaries where surfing is one of our fave sports. I like sitting on the beach watching the brave young bodies getting crushed in the surf. But when you see a wave like that in open water, it gives you shivers. Our boat is probably the last thing to surf in too.

So storms and things and the tales yes, but mostly not wind. Wind seems quite benevolent, even the high one.

b.

[buzzstar]

My personal worst was coming back from the Sea of Cortez (I prefer that name) after we rounded the cape and were heading north). We did not know what we had encountered until after our miserable and lengthy ride (SSB was the only radio and it was not working). I was a mere crew member on a wooden Choy Lee Lion (35 foot sloop, I believe). Anyway it rained and blew in our faces for days until the Captain (my age, but far more experienced and knowledgeable, said those famous words, "screw it" and headed northwest, I think far more west than that. We later learned a fine old schooner on our general intended course had sunk and the crew lost. I do not remember the detail, but I am sure the numbers were impressive except to those who tough out actual hurricanes and cyclones. Even the number of days is a blur. There was talk of just going to Hawaii, but it did not happen.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by BandB

I have no way to judge the wind, but watching the video, I don't see 35 ft. Perhaps it looked like more in person.

I checked out the forcast the day they left. Frankly I am surprised the race committee let them sail. I can't remember the details but a lot of wind was forcast, and to me it looks like 40-50 knots in the vid.

There is no way a sane cruiser would have left on that forcast, and to be honest watching the race from across the Tasman at the time I was a tad worried that one of the boats could have got into trouble. I guess in this case the fetch would have been limited by the Kaikoura coast for the most part, assuming Northerly winds about 30 miles or so max fetch, still enough to kick up a vicious sea, but not fully developed storm waves fortunately.

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

On the day we recorded this video, the forecast was for 38 knots sustained on a broad reach. We sailed close to the shore, maybe a mile out in order to be somewhat sheltered from the waves and wind as seen in the beginning of the video before cutting across the strait. We used the land as much as possible as a breakwater before heading across the exposed strait. So yes we knew about the 38 knot forecast, but we received more than expected.

If the forecast had been for heading directly into 38 knots, we never would have left the anchorage. There's an enormous difference between 38 knots off the stern, off the beam and trying to head directly into it.

OMG , those poor bikes ? I hope you have them a good fresh water wash an oolong after that !!

[B00B00]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I checked out the forcast the day they left. Frankly I am surprised the race committee let them sail. I can't remember the details but a lot of wind was forcast, and to me it looks like 40-50 knots in the vid.

There is no way a sane cruiser would have left on that forcast, and to be honest watching the race from across the Tasman at the time I was a tad worried that one of the boats could have got into trouble. I guess in this case the fetch would have been limited by the Kaikoura coast for the most part, assuming Northerly winds about 30 miles or so max fetch, still enough to kick up a vicious sea, but not fully developed storm waves fortunately.

Thanks Ben, yes it was proper howling, the race was postponed for a few hours waiting for the front to go over, we all thought it had when the wind eased and shifted slightly but in reality it was still on its way. Race committee had to make a call as it was the first leg of a 3 leg race and there was a southerly buster coming in 2 days so he needed to get the fleet in before that. Anyway glad it was from the right direction, good fun but glad i was in a planning boat! I think we stayed in front of the front for quite a while at that speed...

BandB, yes the 35ft was the boat size, the waves were actually pretty small for the wind strength.

[Snowpetrel]

This us a handy little calculator for wave size or based on fetch wind, time and depth. It will tell you the limiting factor.

https://planetcalc.com/4442/

Eg my worst storm as a kid off Cape Palliser(you remember this one BOOBOO?) if I use 60 knots as the wind and 90 km as the fetch I get 5.7 meter waves, that seems about right. I'd have estimated 25 foot, or nearer 8 meters, but I was young and untrained (and scared!) and possibly with some swell under it it might have appeared this size as a combined sea and swell.

In this case it needs 8 hrs at that windspeed and fetch to develop those waves. Less time and it becomes time limited and you get smaller waves.

To get maximum wave heights for 60 knots you need 2000km of fetch, about 60 hrs of time and 55 meters water depth. Or the equivalent dynamic fetch scenario. Very very rare fortunately, because you'd get about a 26.2 meter sig wave height moving at approximately 33 knots with a 185m wavelength and an 11 sec period using a length to height ratio of 7, for a breaking wave, many will be longer and faster.

https://planetcalc.com/4406/ gives some other neat stuff on period and speed.