Horrible Guests, Terrible Crew

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Last week I completed a delightful sail to Venice, Italy from Split, Croatia with my Italian friend Eugenio. The biggest problem encountered.... he wouldn’t allow me to pay for any food the entire week.

Happy you have found a friend as apposed to the dead beats. Sometimes it is difficult to deal with friends that are gracious, it makes you feel guilty.

[mglonnro]

Kenomac, here's another chance to sail with humorous guests, terrific crew

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ec-209003.html

Regarding this thread, it's enjoyable

I think people who have owned a sailboat (or had one within the family) are much more aware of the monetary value of being invited aboard one. Others, understandably, don't realize how much money and effort is involved.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Kenomac, here's another chance to sail with humorous guests, terrific crew

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ec-209003.html

Regarding this thread, it's enjoyable

I think people who have owned a sailboat (or had one within the family) are much more aware of the monetary value of being invited aboard one. Others, understandably, don't realize how much money and effort is involved.

Thanks for the invite, I wish I could join you, but it’s time for us to return to our jobs for six months in order to pay for all the fun.

You’re right about all the work, between the two boats (hopefully soon to be one), I think I spent more time working on preparations than enjoying the 9 weeks of cruising. Next year will be different!

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Thanks for the invite, I wish I could join you, but it’s time for us to return to our jobs for six months in order to pay for all the fun.

You’re right about all the work, between the two boats (hopefully soon to be one), I think I spent more time working on preparations than enjoying the 9 weeks of cruising. Next year will be different!

Next year will always be better!

[Clamdigger]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The Ferraris were paid off back in 1986. I’d love to sell one or both of them, anyone interested?

Investing heavily in a primary residence (home) creates an expensive anchor which holds most people back. Something always needs to be done, money always needs to be spent, redecorate, improve, improve etc. Rental property is entirely different, it’s a good thing.

Ken, if you would like me to assist you with regards to your two Ferraris pm me and give me the details. I may have some friends who would be interested in one or both. Gene

[TeTaniwha]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The bill was for foreign currency transaction fees on their credit cards and for booze they’d purchased for their personal consumption that they had left behind. They itemized every cent.
.

Expectation management - as people here have already commented, goes a long way.

Our last cruise, I chartered a boat in Greece with another couple, but the other couple had to pull out a few months after planning began - pregnancy. No problem, I had intended to charter the boat anyway, and if they didn't join then we'd also go it alone.

A month later we luckily found another couple who were happy to join us; He and his 14y old daughter and his new girlfriend. A burgeoning friendship. The Father and Daughter keen sailors, his girlfriend (HDU nurse) pretty much a first timer. But we each had skills that fitted. We made sure we caught up twice before we all went to get a good measure of each other, and to discuss what we all expected (sailing, hardcore, lying in the sun etc. etc.)

On the first day, as we sat in the airport waiting to fly, we simply said -"how we going to do money?" The decision there was to split it, down the middle, but only after we impressed upon them that we were each a couple with one kid, and that although our kid was only 8months, we didn't think they should pay more for the 14y old. Besides she was a great help in baby siting during manoeuvres. Meals were communal, be they restaurant or not. We ate together, we drank (not much) together. We were respectful of each other's space/cabins.

When I got home, I discovered I'd copped a 300 buck currency conversion charge for the refundable deposit on the boat to go out of and back into my credit card.

Did I expect the other couple to help with that? Hell no! That's my personal finance setup - I didn't like that I'd been charged but in no way did I feel that the charges for that should be shared.

Our friends will be welcome to join us next summer on our own boat - and no doubt we will again have a discussion ahead of time regarding how we should split things, and what our respective expectations are.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^

A civilized and friendly way to manage such a relationship. Well done!

Jim

[Kenomac]

We have credit cards with no foreign currency transaction fees, so why in the world would someone else expect us to pay for their fees? Like the problem encountered with the passport issue, I can’t possibly be expected to know about someone else’s personal banking arrangement with their credit card company, then be expected to pay their fees.

[Souzag818]

Originally Posted by JamuJoe

You seem to be looking for sympathy rather than advice. A captain must be able to screen his crew, discharge any who behave unacceptably, decide upon expense sharing, and control his vessel and those aboard. You are responsible for boat and crew.

Didn't come across as seeking sympathy to me... just thought he was sharing a couple experiences, bad though they may be, and asking how others handle these situations

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by TeTaniwha

Expectation management - as people here have already commented, goes a long way.

Of course that’s right but the issue here is about what happens when someone surprises you with something that no reasonable person would expect to even have to discuss. Expecting your host to pay for foreign transaction fees on YOUR credit card for things you bought for your own consumption is something that I think 99.999% of us can agree that we’d never do, so why would anyone think to discuss this “expectation” ahead of time? Do they also expect to share with him the frequent flyer points they received by using this credit card? Of course not. Same with expecting someone to reimburse you for booze that you bought for your own consumption and then leave behind. Ken makes no secret of the fact that he’s very close to being a non drinker so it’s not reasonable for them to claim they bought the booze to share equally with him. It was their booze and their card fees and it’s beyond absurd, and has nothing to do with being a reasonable expectation, to expect someone else (Ken) to reimburse them.

Sure it’s a great idea to manage everyone’s expectations about money and shared responsibilities by discussing them ahead of time, but some things are so far beyond reasonable that they don’t deserve to be discussed. If we attempt to nail down every other equally ridiculous scenario, we’d all need full time lawyers on retainer and would never have time left over to go sailing once we finished discussing every far fetched scenario imaginable.

Some things just require a bit of common sense and demanding someone else pay for your bank fees and your leftover booze that you both chose to buy and then leave behind is well outside the realm of problems we can reasonably anticipate needing to deal with.

[exploringmatt]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Of course that’s right but the issue here is about what happens when someone surprises you with something that no reasonable person would expect to even have to discuss. Expecting your host to pay for foreign transaction fees on YOUR credit card for things you bought for your own consumption is something that I think 99.999% of us can agree that we’d never do, so why would anyone think to discuss this “expectation” ahead of time?

We were not there when all this happened, so we can only speculate what really happened based on the TOs description. As for the fees, maybe the guy was asked to use his card when they paid at a restaurant and now doesn't want to cover the fees alone. I agree, normally you wouldn't do that, but I have the impression that the other couple was as pissed off of the TOs behavior as he was the other way round and that's why they became unreasonable.

Those two couples seemed to have different expectations on about everything. For me it sounds like that other couple wanted to have fun, have a good time and enjoy life while the TO wanted different kind of fun, tried to be cheap and made the other couple flee from the boat.

I think it already started with different terminology. English is not my first language, so maybe I don't have the right understanding.
For me if I have a guest or if I invite somebody, that's when I cover everything and all I expect is for them to bring themselves. No work or helping is expected, but appreciated when offered.
When I ask somebody if they want to come along or join, or if they ask me, that's when I expect to share the additional cost of either them or me joining, like food or paid housing.
If I want somebody to to work for me then I hire somebody.

I don't have a boat yet, but for me the above should not be different on a boat than in a house. I would never expect anybody to pay parts of my costs of my house, neither would I with a boat. I wouldn't expect somebody to drive me around for free and I will not expect somebody to crew my boat to (help me) sail somewhere with paying them.

The concept the TO thinks normal, that anybody on his boat owes him, I find that completely strange and unreasonable.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by exploringmatt

We were not there when all this happened, so we can only speculate what really happened.......

I agree, normally you wouldn't do that, but I have the impression that the other couple was as pissed off of the TOs behavior as he was the other way round and that's why they became unreasonable.

Those two couples seemed to have different expectations on about everything. For me it sounds like that other couple wanted to have fun, have a good time and enjoy life while the TO wanted different kind of fun, tried to be cheap and made the other couple flee from the boat.....

I don't have a boat yet,.

I suggest you re-read the thread, then try to estimate the cost to purchase and maintain an Oyster 62 before speculating.

Have a nice day.

[exploringmatt]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I suggest you re-read the thread, then try to estimate the cost to purchase and maintain an Oyster 62 before speculating.

I read the whole thread today, not worth re-reading it so soon again
Not sure why the cost to purchase and maintain is relevant. I'm pretty sure my house was more expensive and maintaining the house and garden is a lot of work and cost. I knew that before I bought it. But I never would expect anybody to share those costs, no matter if I invited them, offered them a stay or hired them to do work for me.

Is this different on a boat? If you own a boat, can you expect everybody who steps on it to pay parts of the purchase and maintenance costs?

I can easily see where the disconnect between you and you guests was:
They thought they were invited guests - you wanted them to behave like you chartered the boat together
They wanted good food and drinks - you wanted cheap food and no drinking
They thought it's a vacation - you wanted them as labor

Nothing wrong with your wants, if you made them clear upfront because that's not what people expect when they are invited.

[Cadence]

The thread is beginning to sound like beating a dead horse.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Cadence

The thread is beginning to sound like beating a dead horse.

Definitey, wild assumptions by a few respondents.