How to Choose a good Skipper

[Offshore74]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

C'mon. Let's be honest. You can learn all those things without racing, and a lot of racing is squeezing the very last bit of performance out of a boat, which you don't need to do when you're cruising. Sail choices and sailing choices are a lot different in racing than in cruising.

A lot of racing is sailing rules, strategy, pushing the limits of performance, cutting off other boats, and doing things very quickly. Sure, you learn things that are applicable to cruising, but you can also learn those without being with a testosterone-filled guy who is living out his world cup fantasy.

I like racing, but while there is overlap in concept, it's a lot different skill set than cruising.

I think this is why Moitessier, Alvah Simon or Sterling Hayden are some of my heros, the adventure and respect for nature are really at the heart of what I'm after. Don't get me wrong watching the Volvo Ocean Race has me nail biting in admiration of racers, I'm just not as jacked about pushing the absolutes of conditioning and repeated training that's involved (J24s obviously a different thing). Entering racing for me was about gaining quick reflexes for when weather changes, and learning quickly. Or perhaps I'm a cruiser gaining experience by dabbling in racing when I should be doing it the other way around, by cruising. Not to belabour this thread but I really do enjoy the discussion of the differences in each sport.

[Offshore74]

Originally Posted by tomfl

...about holding the spinnaker sheet double wrapped around your had. Under some conditions that could be fatal. Any skipper that would allow that is not a real skipper in my book. Just from the racing standpoint if you had gone over the side the boat would have had to stop and pick you up and lost time to all the other boats in the race. So aside from any injury issues it is simply bad race tactics.

My girlfriends sailing instructor said "Never under any circumstances wrap a rope around your hand." I should know this, I took the same course last year. Learning bad habits is as easy as learning good ones, if you're not with the right people.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Offshore74

Entering racing for me was about gaining quick reflexes for when weather changes, and learning quickly. Or perhaps I'm a cruiser gaining experience by dabbling in racing when I should be doing it the other way around, by cruising. Not to belabour this thread but I really do enjoy the discussion of the differences in each sport.

Hey, it's all good.

It's not like knowing more things hurts you, as long as you aren't wasting your time with the wrong focus. It's all about your goals and focus.

[Jammer Six]

Originally Posted by Offshore74

I love this analogy! It's so true. The old adage, "would you follow this person into battle?" comes to mind.

Anybody who has been in battle has been yelled at.

Didn't they cancel a few heats of the America's Cup because the wind was too high?

Gotta wait for low wind and calm seas, so we can race...

[JPA Cate]

Offshore 74,

You may actually learn more on race practices than during the races themselves; it is those (if the skipper's smart enough to have them) where you learn more about what you have to keep track of.

Before you go out again, you will benefit from reviewing your notes from your sailing course. Basic safety stuff like not having a turn on the winch when you're trying spinnaker trim is not the kind of thing a skipper is terribly likely to notice if his focus is on overtaking the other boat. However, your experience did remind you, and that's okay.

I frankly do think the racing environment is a good one for learning to sail, as you familiarize yourself with the vocabulary; you learn on simple jobs, but can see that your doing them is a service for the others who have more skills. When you're out on practice you can ask questions like, "how did you know you needed to to that?" start watching trimmers and how they use the telltales, and know you start near the bottom of the heap. (In my case, making up lines and packing spinnaker on a 23 ft. boat.)

Skippers want someone who will show up, reliably and on time, when asked. You need to ask what the food and drink customs are on the boats. Actually, if you go hang around and hope to be picked up, you should bring your own lunch and beverage (non-alcoholic, because you might get a dry boat). Whether the skipper provides food for labor is all local custom. Some skippers provide beverages and not food.

I think it is probably unlikely that you will be invited out for daysails with non-racers until you've made friends with more sailors. Once they know and like you, social invitations do come, or racing skippers invite you for social regattas, brunch deals, and so on. Or at least they did when I was getting started in San Francisco.

Good luck with it.

Ann

PS to Pelagic: racing does not turn EVERYone into a testosterone laden masochist!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Offshore74

Thanks Ann! Wise words indeed. It's reassuring to know there's good ones out there, I better get to the club and start speed dating!

One day you might be a skipper with your own crew to manage. Sailing with different skippers now will shape your idea of what sort of skipper you would like to be in the future. You will learn as much from the bad ones as the good ones.

Pete

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by malbert73

As for leadership- the most successful sailboat skippers in keelboats have tremendous leadership skills- can't do it without it. You are mistaking low level beer can yellers for true world class sailors. Every skipper yells at some point, but there's a difference in conveying urgency on selective circumstances by raising one's voice, which yields results, and being a yeller, who demeans crew who are trying to do their best. I am sure there are exceptions anywhere.

In general I also equate the yellers with the less skilled captains but there are certainly exceptions. A notable one was Ted Turner who was a notorious yeller. However he did manage to win the America's Cup while at the same time earning the nicknames Captain Outrageous and the Mouth of the South.

Wonder if he has mellowed in his old age?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by skipmac

...... Wonder if he has mellowed in his old age?

I think "pickled" is the operative word...)

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by skipmac

In general I also equate the yellers with the less skilled captains but there are certainly exceptions. A notable one was Ted Turner who was a notorious yeller. However he did manage to win the America's Cup while at the same time earning the nicknames Captain Outrageous and the Mouth of the South.

Wonder if he has mellowed in his old age?

Ted Turner may have had the title of captain but Dennis Conner performed the function of captain and at a nice salary paid by Turner.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Ted Turner may have had the title of captain but Dennis Conner performed the function of captain and at a nice salary paid by Turner.

Well it has been a few years but I do not remember that was how it happened. I do remember seeing Ted Turner at the helm during the races, and don't remember seeing Dennis at all but like I said, it has been a few years. In fact as I recall I don't think old school Dennis liked Ted at all and would be surprised to learn that he was captain for Ted.

I did ask Mr Google and could find no mention at all of Dennis Conner in the crew for Courageous in 1977. I did find this article by Gary Jobson and a couple of others on the 1977 cup, none of which mention Dennis at all in relation to the Courageous defense.

Still The Best Defense, 30 Years Later | Sailing World

[rgscpat]

You don't need to squeeze every bit of performance out of a cruiser...
unless you get caught on a lee shore. And, there are other circumstances in which performance can suddenly come in very handy; good boat handling can transfer to all sorts of cruising skills, such as approaching a mooring buoy accurately (or maybe being the first boat to get to a popular mooring area). Not the smallest benefit is the feeling of sailing efficiently and being in tune with the boat, wind, and water.

There are some skippers and boats that mix some cruising and racing at various times and can be fun. And there's nothing wrong with a new sailor trying different boats; it's great for learning.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

PS to Pelagic: racing does not turn EVERYone into a testosterone laden masochist!

You are absolutely correct Ann. I've met a few great sailors who professionaly race....but they are the first to admit that pushing to the edge is not their choice but a job and a challenge. They know when to turn that switch when cruising.

What bothers me is the Club racer who gets caught up in that aggressive competitiveness of racing, rationalizing all the breakages and drama as developing superior skills

They actually believe that "developing close quarter skills" makes them a better sailor.

Give me a sailor who has sailed worldwide extensively for 30 years without incident and he is the " winner " in my books!

Rant over

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

such as approaching a mooring buoy accurately

How about a no engine approach to a buoy that is nestled in row 3 behind a bunch of other boats with a boat in front and a boat in back.

Planing the approach through the other boats, considering the wind and tides, approaching the ball, not hitting the boat in front or behind, being able to stop your boat at the ball and what is your exit strategy if you miss are all skills that you can develop "over 30 years"

Or do 2 years of racing sailing in all conditions (including very light winds w/ high currents).

Originally Posted by Pelagic

They actually believe that "developing close quarter skills" makes them a better sailor.

Not sure what you mean by close quarter skills but put me in a crowded harbor with a bunch of racers way before any "self-taught" cruisers.

Racers don't hit each other very often, know how to position their boats. I never cruise within an arms length of another boat but I know when I have to I can do so safely.

I was with a cruising skipper a while back in a crossing situation. We were port tack. He was way off, maybe a kilometer. I took a peek at him from behind the shrouds (as I always do) saw the bearing was changing and he would pass well in front of us. Our skipper altered course to "give room" - I could not convince him that altering course was not necessary - admittedly I didn't push it. We passed a kilometer behind him.

I am sure that you don't do that but there are tons of folks waiting for 30 year's experience that they can get much more quickly.

BTW - This isn't an us/them concept between cruisers and racers. There are just sailors, good ones and less good ones. I'm just talking about how long it takes to become a good one.

BTW - One area that racing training fails miserably is anchoring training - LOL... Racing Skipper's are predominantly clueless about how to anchor a boat.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

BTW - This isn't an us/them concept between cruisers and racers. There are just sailors, good ones and less good ones. I'm just talking about how long it takes to become a good one.
.

To clarify...... For me thinking mostly offshore and remote cruising... I prefer a mindset that sails well within the limitations of the boat and crew.

Not a mindset that revels in close quarter Starts and tacticts to disadvantage another yacht or force them onto a Lee shore.

Not an over pressed spinnaker broach but a reef when you think of it.

The humility to find conservative solutions to a problem rather than forcing your crew and heavy cruising yacht to live up to your well honed racing skills.

Racing feeds on the Egos of the racer to best an external challenge and to stand on the podium of their vanquished peers and receive accolades.

Sailing takes a gentler, kinder approach to commute with wind, water, your craft and your crew.

Unfortunately Racing conditions you to Push, when as a Sailor you should simply be Pulling together.

That is my lament about the weekend warriors.
They often don't transfer well to a conservative sailor.

[rgscpat]

I'm not sure that some non-racers have an accurate understanding of racing... or at least good, keen racing. Yes, there are jerks in racing (surprise, some cruiser losers too!), but...

Forcing another racer onto a lee shore would be a gross violation of the racing rules and could easily result in severe sanctions imposed against the violator, in addition to possible civil or criminal penalties or admiralty judgment. And even hard core racers would immediately know that this is a "d * c k move". The racing rules have clear provisions for dealing safely with "obstructions" including "continuing obstructions" such as a shoreline, as well as general rules for safety and fair sailing.

Spinnaker broaches can happen, and racers will carry chutes in conditions where other sailors wouldn't and will risk trading ripped sails for a pickle dish or worse, but carelessly sailing out of control isn't a good way to sail a race ... losing control is a way to lose a race. Uncontrolled sailing is bad sailing whether you're a racer or a cruiser; you don't flirt with it if you can help it.