I'll acknowledge the elephant in the room...Full keel is dead... ssb is dead...

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

Per Meriam-Webster: the science of numbers and their operations (see operation sense 5), interrelations, combinations, generalizations, and abstractions and of space (see space entry 1 sense 7) configurations and their structure, measurement, transformations, and generalizations Algebra, arithmetic, calculus, geometry, and trigonometry are branches of mathematics.

Oxford says

the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics ).

In science and engineering the element of abstraction differentiates between arithmetic and mathematics. Blowing a plastic boat around in a bathtub is not sailing.

[MicHughV]

I beg to differ...

navigating by sextant results in a fix that is best summarized as " somewhere around here"...the old timers would...um...that would include me....place a thumb on a chart and wiggle it around in an arc, indicating somewhere within the area under your thumb....and depending on the chart scale could vary from 1 mile to 10 mile...nautical miles that is....close enuff=good enuff

when in doubt....stand off....sigh....I miss dem good 'ole days....

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Blowing a plastic boat around in a bathtub is not sailing.

Actually, blowing a model boat in a tub, a pool, or a pond is still sailing. It is model sailing, but it is sailing nonetheless.

The abstract science which investigates deductively the conclusions implicit in the elementary conceptions of spatial and numerical relations, and which includes as its main divisions geometry, arithmetic, and algebra. [15]Oxford English Dictionary, 1933

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmtiaw2LKd8

[Cadence]

Mathematics or arithmetic? Some what of an exercise in semantics, can one be do without the other if there is a difference.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

navigating by sextant results in a fix that is best summarized as " somewhere around here"

Ah, but there is good math there. Most falls in the categories of Probability and Random Processes and Numerical Analysis. You can calculate errors based on the individual's ability to measure angles with a sextant, timing errors, and round-off errors. A small triangle (say a mile) could be luck and the actual error is +/- 5 nm.

Of course wiggling your thumb is faster and artistic. *grin*

Originally Posted by Cadence

Mathematics or arithmetic? Some what of an exercise in semantics, can one be do without the other if there is a difference.

Definitely semantics ("the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.") - why is that bad? Communication is based on common vocabulary. If we can't agree on what the words mean how we can communicate? It's always worth understanding how others use words. Even if we don't agree we'll at least know what the other person is talking about.

[MicHughV]

some other yachties and myself had radio controlled sailboats...about 30" long....used to race each other around the marina when we were bored...beer can races......we drank the beer.....the models did the racing....it was a blast.....

[MicHughV]

our model sailboats were pretty simple affairs...2 channels...rudder and sail trim...

but I've seen video's of model sailboats that can even hoist and douse a spinnaker...pretty fancy stuff...canting keels....backstay adjusters....you name it....they had it...could sail in some pretty big waves too....

came at a price off course....I think it's a European thing.....don't see much of that here...but awesome models....go to youtube....

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

In fairness, trigonometry is math. Certainly spherical trig is.

Math as math is about the proofs. Reasoning from axioms and theorems to find new theorems.

It's not just running numbers through predefined processes, no matter how complex the process.

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

In science and engineering the element of abstraction differentiates between arithmetic and mathematics.

Mathematics, as a discipline, is about the creation of new math, not about the use of existing math.

What most scientists and engineers do, when they're using mathematics, isn't doing mathematics any more than someone who drives across a bridge is doing engineering.

Yes, there was engineering done in designing the bridge, but there is none in simply using it.

Ditto for navigation. It uses math, it doesn't create it. So the practice of celestial navigation isn't doing math. It's just crunching numbers.

[MicHughV]

math is math

if a ship can cross the ocean in 7 days.....1S x7D=1C, 7 SD=1C
7 ships can cross it in 1 day....................7Sx 1D = 1C, 7SD =1C

figures never lie...

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Oxford says

In science and engineering the element of abstraction differentiates between arithmetic and mathematics. Blowing a plastic boat around in a bathtub is not sailing.

If you are going to quote a source, quote the whole thing:
Arithmetic is mathematics, it's just not high math.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Jdege

Mathematics, as a discipline, is about the creation of new math, not about the use of existing math.

What most scientists and engineers do, when they're using mathematics, isn't doing mathematics any more than someone who drives across a bridge is doing engineering.

Yes, there was engineering done in designing the bridge, but there is none in simply using it.

Ditto for navigation. It uses math, it doesn't create it. So the practice of celestial navigation isn't doing math. It's just crunching numbers.

I differ here, OES says mathematics includes arithmetic

[ChrisJHC]

You’re all wrong: it’s maths not math.

(Ducks for cover)

[MicHughV]

I'm trying to remember back without aging myself too much...

my first job was earning me about a $100 a month....and I managed to do ok on that...pay the rent...make the car payment, and a few bucks left over for beer....
then an offer came to work in Saudi Arabia, for the then unheard sum of $5/hr....yep, $5/hr was untold riches back then...it represented " serious" cash....about $800/month....

I never went, as I heard living conditions were abysmal, and I would have had to sign a yearly contract, but boy oh boy.....I sure thought about it.......yep...$800/month back then counted you as a " rich person"...

[mjscottinnc]

My father used to say, ‘if you wait long enough, everything comes back in style’. He wasn’t that far off. What goes around, comes around.